MAPLEWOOD, Minn. — Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the
Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing — and the church’s — to conservative political candidates and causes.
The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?
After refusing each time,
Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “
The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.
“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,”
Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”
Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal. The response from his congregation at
Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul — packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals — was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which
Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.
But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.
“Most of my friends are believers,” said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, “and they think if you’re a believer, you’ll vote for Bush. And it’s scary to go against that.”
Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.
At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “
Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America — an Evangelical’s Lament.”
And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “
The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.
“There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at
Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.
“More and more people are saying this has gone too far — the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.
“Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”
Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church’s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.
“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”
Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.
The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel University in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.
He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, “
Letters From a Skeptic,” based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic — an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.
Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”
He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.
“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.
Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of
North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.
In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others — by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.
“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.
“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”
Mr. Boyd lambasted the “hypocrisy and pettiness” of Christians who focus on “sexual issues” like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson’s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.
“Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,” he said. “And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.”
Some Woodland Hills members said they applauded the sermons because they had resolved their conflicted feelings. David Churchill, a truck driver for U.P.S. and a Teamster for 26 years, said he had been “raised in a religious-right home” but was torn between the Republican expectations of faith and family and the Democratic expectations of his union.
When Mr. Boyd preached his sermons, “it was liberating to me,” Mr. Churchill said.
Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.
Mary Van Sickle, the family pastor at Woodland Hills, said she lost 20 volunteers who had been the backbone of the church’s Sunday school.
“They said, ‘You’re not doing what the church is supposed to be doing, which is supporting the Republican way,’ ” she said. “It was some of my best volunteers.”
The Rev. Paul Eddy, a theology professor at Bethel University and the teaching pastor at Woodland Hills, said: “Greg is an anomaly in the megachurch world. He didn’t give a whit about church leadership, never read a book about church growth. His biggest fear is that people will think that all church is is a weekend carnival, with people liking the worship, the music, his speaking, and that’s it.”
In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community — African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.
This suits Mr. Boyd. His vision for his church is an ethnically and economically diverse congregation that exemplifies Jesus’ teachings by its members’ actions. He, his wife and three other families from the church moved from the suburbs three years ago to a predominantly black neighborhood in St. Paul.
Mr. Boyd now says of the upheaval: “I don’t regret any aspect of it at all. It was a defining moment for us. We let go of something we were never called to be. We just didn’t know the price we were going to pay for doing it.”
His congregation of about 4,000 is still digesting his message. Mr. Boyd arranged a forum on a recent Wednesday night to allow members to sound off on his new book. The reception was warm, but many of the 56 questions submitted in writing were pointed: Isn’t abortion an evil that Christians should prevent? Are you saying Christians should not join the military? How can Christians possibly have “power under” Osama bin Laden? Didn’t the church play an enormously positive role in the civil rights movement?
One woman asked: “So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn’t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws?”
Mr. Boyd responded: “I don’t think there’s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don’t slap the label ‘Christian’ on it.”
link
One thing I do object to about his sort of meetings. Armpits. Who the HELL wants to be next to some sweaty Christian with their arms in the air.
Grandpa Harley.
Regardless of his personal feelings on the various hot button topics of the day, I think it's good that he recognizes the potential damage that might result from more pervasive inclusion of religion in politics. I've felt for a long time that the Evangelicals pushing for more involvement in government simply don't realize what they're asking for. In other words, if successful they could quite easily look back in shock and say, "We created a monster!"
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. I'm glad the good pastor recognizes the proper place for church in society.
And I further applaude that he said "America was NOT founded as a theocracy!" Finally SOMEBODY over there who knows their history!
Onanite
"One thing I do object to about his sort of meetings. Armpits. Who the HELL wants to be next to some sweaty Christian with their arms in the air.
Grandpa Harley"
They are reaching for God, who they think lives in the sky, but what were you reaching for the last time you extemporaneously blurted out OH GOD!!?
Dan (Seeking spirituality)
He's using semantics to get a larger crowd, yeah he lost 1/5 of his sheep, but he knows that by stiring controversy interest will steer his way, he most likely thinks that those who left were already financially drained and he's looking for new blood, he's a fraud.
Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said. awe :-( just 4 mill, damn Satan!!!
This guy's an ass wipe, he's a con artist, just like all the rest. He really does not give a rats ass about abortion or politics, he's running his game, and those blind ass fools are eating him up!
He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel University in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.
What college did Mr.Gzus hail(hell) p.i. from????
Lets see, what level of education did Mr.Gzus have??? hmmm! Let me think!!! Oh yeah! Absolutely NONE!!!!!
And who really gives a diddly damn if a god knows the future, what the hell does that have to do with anything????????? Which god? Which future????
They're all a bunch of loonies, pretending to believe in a myth, their way, I find it so hard to believe that there are people living today that just do not want to know the truth, about their myth, I would have never believed grown adults could behave in such an immature psychopathic manner, it's just sickening to see grown adults praising their fake preachers and raising their hands up into the rising fart gas above.
These people are deluted just like all others, this is a cult, just like all churches, what a bunch of losers???? Screw them all to hell, saith the lord!!!
Ben, isn't it a good thing this man thinks religion should stay out of politics? Isn't a good thing he believes the religious right has gone too far?
I, for one, would rather deal with a bunch of people going to church to feel special than with them trying to impose their faith on me or my family through government.
Key word "Flock"
He's still raising money in the name Je$u$
He's just a horse of a different color, he's still a Fraud!
Mr. Boyd gave his sermons while his church was in the midst of a $7 million fund-raising campaign. But only $4 million came in, and 7 of the more than 50 staff members were laid off, he said.
How much money did Je$u$ raise????
Was Je$u$ a millionare? apparently so, but that's ok, he saved souls and preached the gospel:-(
When Boyd say's ok you all can go home now, because you are saved and Jesus does not need or want anymore of your vain money, I will applaud this man, but until the preachers keep begging and raising millions for Jesus I will continue to bash these fools.
So I guess it's ok to raise millions of $$$$$$$ and use Jesus, and guilt, and issues of politics and abortions and homosexuality as long as they string along the name of Jesus with them, huh?
Why can't you all ses he's using his ace-in-the hole card (Jesus) for Boyd's cause, it's not that he personally is against politics or abortion, etc. it's Gregory A. Boyds's cause!
Are you people still this freaking blind????
If Boyd was really concerned about such issues he would form a regime and start a revolution, or raise hell outside the church, but his agenda is all about Mr.Gregory A. Boyd, and not Jesus.
Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal.
Does this sound any different than any other preacher? I guess so, lets all raise 4 million $$$$$ for Jesus.
Wake up people!!!!
After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.
Six sermons, what is that??? But pure brainwashing at it''s best?
Sermons------BULLSHIT!!!!!!
How much money has he spent to show his disagreement against and opposing the war or abortion or gay rights?
Americans are dying today overseas, as these shyters over here are collecting money for Jesus!
How much money has Billy Graham sent to stop and oppose the war and any other preacher or religious institution???????
Let me guess!!! Zero, zip ziltch, nada, nothing!!!!!
How many religious institutions have stood up and shouted and went to Washington D.C. in droves to protest the war and abortion and politics, etc????
This Boyd idiot, just like all preachers will say that they are against issues in church, but that is as far as it goes, ok you're saved and you're going to heaven, now give me all your money!!!!
Wake up people!!!!!
He's still a money grubbing liar!!!
They all use some type of agenda to call attention to themselves, look at James Hagee, Jerry Falwell, Pat R. etc. whether it's for something or against something the money and the agenda is based around money for Jesus(for the godly called peacher)!!!
He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel University in St. Paul
Look at his credentials, do you think he's going to dig ditches for a living, when he can raise millions of dollars for Jesus????
How many ditch diggers do you all know that is a millionare????
List all their names here below:
______
Now come back and tell me how wonderful this guy is!!!!
This is how preachers get by being a preacher, they are master minipulators, how many preachers or religious institutions do you know that have stood up outside the church in protest and have actively stopped a war or political issue?
Maybe you guys need to go to hear some of Boyd's wonderful Sermons.....maybe you'll get saved and leave a little money behind for Jesus too!!!
Yeah, well as long as we're dreaming, I'd rather deal with NEITHER. Just look at the cult members standing there with their palms face-up, as if in some sort of trance. It's sickening. I liken it to a picture of a bunch of grown adults holding their Easter baskets out on Easter Sunday---waiting for the Bunny to bring them eggs.
Hey, wait a minute...if the E. Bunny promised eternal life in exchange for the believe in himself, maybe we WOULD see such a thing, no? Think about it.
How many people has any of his "Sermons" saved? How many abortions has his "Sermons" saved?
Since when has a "Sermon" been considered a legitimate message from a god?
When a preacher gets up and says that all religions and politics are a fraud, I'll support that preacher, until that time, I will consider them as bogus frauds.
and...
"Maybe you guys need to go to hear some of Boyd's wonderful Sermons.....maybe you'll get saved and leave a little money behind for Jesus too!!!"
Show me where someone here has said "This guy's wonderful" or "I'd like to hear this guy speak?" Merely being an athiest, agnostic, or other non-believer does not automatically mean you have to disagree with everything a believer does or says.
Perhaps you'd prefer he continue the Evangelical push for more religious influence in government? Face facts, the Christian religion is not going to magically disappear as much as many of us would like it to. Over 80% of this country is populated by Christians. But the more they retreat into their churches, the less we have to contend with in the public arena.
Yes, it would be better if he stood up and said, "It's all a fraud!" But as Onanite said, this is at least a step in the right direction.
So, reserve your sarcasm for the Christian.
So would I, boom, but that's not the reality we have to contend with. There is no room for the Christian faith in government, and the more they realize that the better.
Go ahead and agree with mq, you come off sounding like a pacifist, just because this jackass preacher talks against politics, not one change will you see in place.
What one thing have you seen changed by any preacher taking a stance? except them getting richer!!!
The only reason and (and only reason) Geo Bush got elected is because he lied about being a Christian.
If Hillary R. Clinton wants to win the 2008 election, she better get religious real quick.
I think religions have had such a hold on people, it's way too late to try to disband church and state, it's done creeped into and intermingled into politics and the white house, they've already seen the power and grip religion has had upon the vote of the American public.
When we condone the actions of any preacher, we are also condoning their so called godly authority, as if any stance they take could possibly the correct one, since they are already convinced that this preacher is speaking from a god-called authority.
I support no preacher that claims a godly authority, regardless of his personal stance and agenda.
When I first read this article in the Times, I thought, oh! What an interesting change for the good of things! But my antennae were way up when I read that first line in the article: that he was the minister for a mega-church, and then Ben put it a different way and I think he's got an extremely important point.
So this guy's going to accomplish two things with this lapse from the fold: endear liberals to him and get all those christians trotting back in one or two years. After all, the Times was fooled, wasn't it?
I don't trust those shill artists for a second. Who says a minister for god can't have the foresight to get ahead of the game, even though it seems un-pious at the time?
Naomi
Me: "Yeah, well as long as we're dreaming, I'd rather deal with NEITHER."
Uber' "So would I, boom, but that's not the reality we have to contend with. There is no room for the Christian faith in government, and the more they realize that the better."
I feel ya. I (mis)understood the word "rather" from the first post to be an implication that they are engaging in one thing, and not the other, like, they were NOT already trying to impose their religious crap in our government. Which would be false, because they ARE trying. And it's not just government..it's everywhere. I just saw a church marquee the other day that said: "Without Jesus, you have no life".
F%cking insulting condescending tripe!
I don't happen to see an end to any church here in the U.S., and frankly I'm not arguing for the destruction of Christianity either, as ridiculous as that faith is. I'm sure you'll jump all over this so I'll qualify it below.
All other questions aside, religious liberty (freedom "of" as well as freedom "from") is one of the most important principles inserted into the Constitution. For 14 years I've sworn to support and defend the Constitution from all enemies, and that includes defending the right to worship (or not worship) whatever god/goddess, or subscribe to whatever philosophy you wish, provided it does not infringe upon the rights of others to do the same.
So, while I think the Christian religion is bunk, they have every right to believe whatever they wish just as you do, provided they keep it to themselves as much as possible. I feel the same about every faith (or non-faith).
"...you come off sounding like a pacifist...not one change will you see in place."
Not a pacifist, a realist. Social change always comes slowly, often in baby steps, and with growing numbers of non-Christians we may indeed see a day when Christianity will be a minority religion. I don't see that happening in our lifetime, so I'll do what I can to keep religion in its place. When the opportunity presents itself, I ask questions and present information intended to make Christians think about their faith, which is itself often the first step toward reason.
In other words, change can be slow - even painfully so - but it does happen.
"What one thing have you seen changed by any preacher taking a stance?"
I can't speak to that except to say that this particular message - the one concerning politics and the religious right - is different from what most Evangelicals say. If that influences the remaining 4,000 members of that church to stay out of politics and stop pushing for legislation that favors Christianity more than it already is, that's all to the good as far as I'm concerned. Is it enough? Hell no! But as I said, social change usually comes slowly.
"I think religions have had such a hold on people, it's way too late to try to disband church and state, it's done creeped into and intermingled into politics and the white house, they've already seen the power and grip religion has had upon the vote of the American public."
I agree. However, change the other direction is not impossible.
Imagine if this man had preached this message during the last election. Would that have made a difference in the outcome? What if 10, 100, or 1000 pastors had preached this message? Would that have kept Bush out?
This has been my point all along; I don't "celebrate" or "condone" this man as a rational, thinking person when it comes to faith. I simply happen to agree that religion has no place in politics, and since Christians are not likely to listen to this message from those unfriendly to the faith (i.e., you and me), I'm glad one of their own said something.
"When we condone the actions of any preacher, we are also condoning their so called godly authority, as if any stance they take could possibly the correct one..."
That all-or-nothing attitude is no better than theirs. Be careful you don't become just as dogmatic and unreasonable as they.
And even a pastor can have a good idea once in a while. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Perhaps you were not aware, but not all Christian pastors support war, or supported slavery. Those that opposed war or opposed slavery perhaps are fewer, but by your logic they were wrong about their stance anyway, merely by virtue of their chosen faith and profession. This is just as illogical as Christians saying all atheists are amoral.
Look Ben, you do make an important point that this man may indeed be in it for personal gain. But his "sheep" don't know that. All they know is they've been told to stay out of politics, and the Religious Right has gone too far. Good! 4,000 fewer Christians voting for "values" next election.
Amend that to read, "Good! 4,000 Christians who may not vote for "values" next election."
Slight difference, but I'm not so much of an optimist as to think "values" is totally out of the equation for these people.
And it will do no good to try and accomodate and respect you people.
As most of the posts show, you will still spit on us and despise us.
That is why we need to go for theocracy!
The whole enchilada!
No compromise.
EVER!
he and thousands of preachers are the most diabolically-cunning people in the USA.
We've already let them have way too much power, it's over, the christians win.
As you know, about 99.999% of the time we disagree. In fact, I'm a bit surprised you weren't lamenting this preacher's position on the so-called Religious Right. Of course, I know nothing of your politics.
Anyway, I'm a prior Army MP in the Air National Guard (Communications). I'm one among many who prove that there ARE atheists in foxholes.
Back to Ben...
Almost forgot I wanted to address this question you posed...
"How many religious institutions have stood up and shouted and went to Washington D.C. in droves to protest the war and abortion and politics, etc????"
We're not likely to see this happen "in droves" as you say. However, in your zeal to condemn everything Christian, aren't you forgetting that not all of them are like that? They are, after all, human in spite of their delusions.
Here's just a few links showing Christian involvement in those exact arenas. Even if they are in the minority, at least their humanity outweighs their adherence to the Bible and/or religious doctrine.
The Lutheran World Federation
Worshippers Protest War by Demonstrating Peace
Clergy Protest War in Iraq
Christians Protest for Peace in Princeton
How To Be a Pro-Choice Christian
Pro-Choice and Pro-Faith
Diverse Groups Gather to Protest War with Iraq
As champions for the voice of reason and common sense, shouldn't we refrain from stereotyping and making sweeping generalizations?
Be careful! You may be labeled as a Christian sympathizer and excommunicated by your fellow exchristians.
Jeff the Ubergeek: “…shouldn't we refrain from stereotyping and making sweeping generalizations?”
OF COURSE NOT! SHOWING ANY SIGNS OF UNDERSTANDING OR TOLORANCE TOWARDS CHRISTIANS WILL NOT BE TOLORATED. I think I read that site purpose and disclaimer.
Dave Poole
Stop posting here.
That's not a request. That is an order. You are no longer welcome.
You're an idiot.
However, you're invited to stay.
So, I am no friend of Christianity or its adherents (particularly Evangelicals), yet I recognize their basic humanity and their right to believe as they wish. Just keep it away from me and mine, and out of the public arena.
Unfortunately, Christians often seem to have a theological chip on their shoulder, particularly those who argue apologetics or spew condemnation at us here at exchristian.net. I have no problem (and even enjoy) tearing these arguments apart.
Christian sympathizer...NOT!
That wasn't very nice. Seems a little extreme for being just a little sarcastic.
Dave Poole
You're an idiot.
How was the factory today?
"SHOWING ANY SIGNS OF UNDERSTANDING OR TOLORANCE TOWARDS CHRISTIANS WILL NOT BE TOLORATED."
Of course, if one wanted to move up a couple of notches from merely being "tolerated"---especially on a...::cough::...EX-christian website---they could always provide objective evidence for the existance of Jesus, and his side-kicks...Ghost, and Big Boss.....right?
Well?
The "factory" was great today, thanks. We got a lot accomplished. Two of my people got the new power phase cables routed to the primary switchboards while the rest of my crew hooked up four new power distribution panels. Tomorrow I fly to the west coast to help trouble shoot some issues another shipyard is having integrating a new system into an existing platform. I would love to share more but.....I really said too much already.
How was your day at the government facility?
Dave Poole
"In a sarcastic tizzy, David Poole said:
"SHOWING ANY SIGNS OF UNDERSTANDING OR TOLORANCE TOWARDS CHRISTIANS WILL NOT BE TOLORATED.""
I thought it was funny. I wouldn't qualify it as a hissy fit or a tizzy. I felt it was the kind of sarcasm that is found to be common among the exchristians in the posts and forums here.
As far as evidence, I already said I have NONE. Why do you keep asking me? What is it that they call people who keep repeating the same thing or behavior but expect a different answer?
Hmm...do you know?
Dave Poole
wm said: How was the factory today?
I wanted to ask if this was a sincere question or some type of 'dig'. It felt like a dig. I would think that such a low brow remark would be above the most intellegent person on this site. Don't beleive you're the most intellegent person here? Well, just ask yourself, he'll tell you.
Signed,
a reel ideot (duh)
PS,
Feel free to replace "intelligent" with "pietistic","sanctimonious", or "arrogant"
Me: "Of course, if one wanted to move up a couple of notches from merely being "tolerated"---especially on a...::cough::...EX-christian website---they could always provide objective evidence for the existance of Jesus, and his side-kicks...Ghost, and Big Boss.....right?"
David Poole: "As far as evidence, I already said I have NONE. Why do you keep asking me? What is it that they call people who keep repeating the same thing or behavior but expect a different answer? Hmm...do you know?"
Yeah, I know....they call 'em "insane".....however, that's only for people who really EXPECT a different result. I no more expect you to provide evidence for your biblegod, than I would for a child to provide evidence for the Great Pumpkin. Why?...because neither exist. Hey, as long as you're good with being kicked around like an alcoholic selling shooters at an AA meeting, that's your choice....but honestly, that idea seems REALLY "insane". Anyway---WELCOME David Poole, everybody!...::hic'p::...
lol!
My point being made is that, those links you so generously supplied where dated mostly in 2002 and 2003 with a handfull of clergy and petitions to not invade Iraq or start a war with Iraq. That was almost 4 years ago and over 400 billion dollars ago and over 2500 precious American lives ago, and untold innocent Iraqi civilians, that needless shit is a mark and disgrace to the human race.
My point as posted earlier:
just because this jackass preacher talks against politics, not one change will you see in place.
Like in 2002, yes we still went to war with Iraq, my point made on this one!!!
"How many religious institutions have stood up and shouted and went to Washington D.C. in droves to protest the war and abortion and politics, etc????"
A few handful and a few thousand petitions, which is just laughed at by congress and the president!!
uber said; As champions for the voice of reason and common sense, shouldn't we refrain from stereotyping and making sweeping generalizations?
Ok, so a couple of thousand perhaps sent in petitions and demonstrated, does this fact eliminate my sweeping generalizations because the remainder of say 50 million xtains in the USA sat on their fat ass's and glorified their preacher and their precious Jesus myth and their do nothing God and threw their money into the offering plate, knowing fullwell that God was watching how much they put into the offering plate, so he can judge them fairly in the next life?
My whole point in this is;
Preachers have absolutely no power nor influence. nor 100% participation by the church members to control nor sway a political decision.
The only power the preacher has is to sway the members to believe as he wants them to believe and has full control over their minds and their money.
Preachers agenda's are not about stepping in and taking over the reins of any political decision, their focus is to keep their "Flock" convinced that they are speaking from a devine source and the members must believe whatever he says, even if he forms a verbal protest, the church members will just set there and nod their heads in agreement, because they have been conditioned by the fear of Hell put into them, they must turn the other cheek according to Jesus.
Muslims want to punish Christians by killing the infidels, Now!
Christians want to turn the other cheek and let God punish the sinners (not them) in the next life!
Christians are cowards, a sweeping generalization yes, because Christians are cowards, they fear an invisible deity and an invisible Jesus and an invisible hell.
Chritianity should be called Cowardism.
Jesus was a coward too, because he used the philosophy of love against his enemies, he was conditioned by his own deception that he was from a god and therefore he thought he would return and save the lost, but he found out, (well not really) he's been dead and unconscious for over 2000 years, he thought he was coming back, the joke was on him and millions that want and choose to believe the nonsense.
The preacher has full power over his "Flock" and that's all.
That is what a preacher is, a master over his flock, his agenda is to keep his flock and his flock's financial support.
I think my generalizations are over-all valid.
If the members stood up and said, we're not giving any more money to this church or to him/her, the preacher would walk out and say you'll have to find another preacher.
Somehow I've never been able to find a connection between God, Jesus and money.
I guess I would make a terrrible preacher!!
Jesus supposedly said, store up your treasures in Heaven, sell all your possessions and give to the poor, now you're poor too!
I rich man cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, so if you own an fine automobile or fine donkey, you're going straight to Hell!
Jerry Falwell said that anyone that is not a Christian is going straight to Hell including Muslims and Jews, but Jesus was a Jew, so Jesus will be in Hell when we all get there, the only people that will be in Heaven, will be God and Satan....lol
I guess it did not work out like God intended, huh???
Interesting test result.
It's a bit funny that we are both proving each other's points. I'll explain later in the post.
Yes, those links were older but I suspect that these folks didn't stop their opposition to the war simply because the war started. I seriously doubt we'd hear about it anyway. Haven't seen any news items covering current opposition lately.
About a year ago I read this article which gives some figures showing percentages of believers supporting military efforts in Iraq. While Christians in general are more supportive than non-Christians, even some Evangelicals (Bush's base) oppose military efforts there. I haven't seen anything since then so I'm not even sure anyone has revisited the issue.
Another article from 2004 covered a poll that's related to this topic. While Christians and non-Christians were just about opposites, what became clear to me was that painting every Christian as an ignorant, war-mongering, anti-freedom hack might not be strictly accurate.
At any rate, I started to wonder what might've happened had a greater percentage of them stayed home on election day.
"Ok, so a couple of thousand perhaps sent in petitions and demonstrated, does this fact eliminate my sweeping generalizations because the remainder of say 50 million xtains in the USA..."
Actually, it's probably more along the lines of 230+ million Christians based on current population estimates, and if say only 30% oppose the ongoing military efforts (there are actually more), that's still approx. 70 million opposed.
By comparison, about 15% of the population is non-religious or secular. Based on current population estimates this is about 44+ million people. Isn't it interesting that a greater number of Christians might agree with you politically (at least some of the time) than there are atheists in existence?
My point is simply that stereotypes and sweeping generalizations are pretty much bad ideas, regardless of their origin.
"The only power the preacher has is to sway the members to believe as he wants them to believe and has full control over their minds and their money."
Interesting that you should say that, because that was precisely what I was getting at. If more pastors had preached a message that Christianity should stay out of government, I wonder if Bush would've won.
In other words, 5,000 Christians heard one of their own leaders essentially say, "We've gone too far. We don't belong in politics." 4,000 apparently listened and agreed. If that influences their voting habits so much the better.
In marketing, being first is important. Xerox, for example, having been one of the first to introduce the photocopying technology, are so well known in the business, that some just say, "I will Xerox this document," instead of saying, "I will make a photocopy."
I believe the "good shepperd" of this story has realized that the next trend in the American church will be to reject the republicans and the Iraq war.
What he is doing is opening the "friendly" doors of his church to all those unhappy christians who nee d a place to go because their home church is a Bush-ass-kisser.
He lost 1000 members but he stands to win even more, because there are christians out there who want to disassociate themselves from the violent B.S.
How do I know that? I am 100% sure that the article arose from a media release sent by the church. The media release got the interest of the journalist who wrote the article.
Media releases are tools of "Media Relations Campaings," aimed at giving business free publicity from the media.
The guy, obviously, isn't an idiot. But all he is looking for is publicity. Of that I am sure.
That was nice how you labeled that dig a 'test'. It reminded me of when Christians cast judgement on others and call it 'exorting'.
I am not fooled by either.
Dave Poole