Just the other night I saw a repeat of a program about a Boy Scout leader who had molested many young boys who were scouts. The most heartbreaking story was about one boy who had been so psychologically damaged by the abuse that he shot and killed his parents and sister. The ironic (or maybe not so ironic) thing is that this kid's family were devout churchgoers.

Now, this boy had been abused by the scout leader for years, even up until he started going to college. Wouldn't you think that god would have somehow clued the parents into knowing what was going on? Send them some kind of sign or something, a vision, a dream, or just a frickin' voice in their head (like so many christians claim to hear).

No, none of this happened. In fact, the boy was so distraught (sp?) that he would frequently act out. The parents didn't know how to help him, so they went to the SCOUT LEADER to have him talk to their son! WTF? You think god would have went, "Uh, hello, get your son away from that freak!" These devout christian parents repeatedly made sure the molester was in their child's life (they didn't know about the abuse though--that omnipotent holy spirit must have been on vacation).

Again, like this post has demonstrated, when something really wrong is going on, god is silent. Yet, he seems to come through loud and clear to these televangelists who want your money. Or maybe child abuse is the only thing god refrains from speaking out against.

Michelle,
You have that right. god is shaking his head right now, going "oh my, that poor child," and is OK with that. True-- WTF? If you saw that going on you would shoot the dick off of an offender, but god's thinking, "let's see how this plays out????!!!!!!"
While I can roll with the idea that pain is a learning experience (it teaches compassion, blahblahblah), I (as I head into social work after my degree is FINALLY finished in Dec 06) can honestly say that ANY type of child abuse is USELESS in a cosmic sense. There are WAY too many opportunities for pain AFTER the age of 16 or 18-- the entire fucking world's objective should be eradicating the preventable pain that happens before.

I mean, real pain. I don't mean, ah, my mother was a bad cook, or watched the soaps instead of making clay figures with me. I'm talking about trauma, sex abuse, severe neglect.

Because children still are in the position that women used to be (prior to the 19th? amendment, but after that
Thanks for letting me rant.
-B

Apologies. After "but after that," it should have said," though things for women, and indeed children, got ONLY incrementally better, the idea that the rights of women and children need to be considered DID in fact get considered. Just plainly not to the extent that white men in their fifties with erectile dysfunction (plainly an important societal problem to be dealt with) got considered."

Michelle,

Surely you're not suggesting that Christianity is false???

I mean there must be a messege in there for some lost sinner to be led to be saved, comon!!!

God's ways are not our ways, God has a way of seeing things way ahead of us poor lost sinners.

Well lets see if that boy shot his both parents and his sister, then maybe he had a uncle that needed to be saved or maybe someone reading the newspaper read the article and decided they need to be saved, because we need to be saved before IT'S TOO LATE!!!!

Maybe God was playing golf and miss that call! Maybe Pat Robertson was distracting God or Jerry Fartwell.

God really needs his 10% first and foremost before he can help people in distress, especially little innocent children.

God is such a loving and merciful God!

God is not willing that anyone should perish, but so many do on his watch!

dear ben,

Do u think it is a good idea for me to start a massacre so that those who needed to be "saved" will cry out, "Jesus Christ! Please save me from hell before I got myself killed by that madman!!!" after reading the newspaper article about my massacre?

Why worship a god who would rather play golf than listening to the calls of that poor boy? You better start practising golf so that you won't miss the call when god says to you, "play golf with me or i will send you to hell!!!"

Why worship a god who can get distracted by Pat Robertson and Jerry Fartwell? You might as well give all your $$$ to Pat Robertson and Jerry Fartwell so that you can pray, "God, if you don't fulfill my wishes, i will ask Pat Robertson and Jerry Fartwell to "annoy" you....hehehe..."

If a little innocent child calls for god to help him in distress because he does not have any shelter, food, drink, clothes etc. what 10% should he give to god? 10% of his flesh? 10% of his blood?

So if we do not want to perish, just stay away from god's "watch"....and maybe we should stay away from god's "clock" as well!!!

Barb and Ben,

I agree that the pain suffered from this type of abuse has no beneficial value whatsoever as far as learning "life lessons." That's not to say that people who have been abused never learn anything from the experience, it's just that the knowledge comes at a very high price--many years of depression, anxiety, and other terrible states of mind.

That young man who killed his family knows exactly why he's sitting in prison and how he got there (I'm sure he had tons of therapy), but all that crystal-clear hindsight is not worth what he had to go through.

Hey Barb, good luck with your new career after you get your degree. I'm thinking of becoming a forensic psychiatrist (or psychologist). I'm facinated by the motivations behind people's actions. Christians provide a lot of fodder for that, fortunately!

Jaku, you're preaching to the choir, so to speak. I hope you realize that Ben was being sarcastic. Hang out here more often and you'll pick it up in no time!

- Michelle

dear anonymous,

i have to admit that i don't spend a lot of times hanging around this website. thank you for letting me know and i would like to say sorry to ben and others if they find my comment offensive and/or inappropriate.

Jaku, I totally agree with your post. I hope I didn't come off as condescending. I was only trying to let you know that Ben was being sarcastic. It worked though, 'cause didn't he sound just like a fundy! (hehe)

I look forward to reading more of your posts!

I went to this church back in the seventies and have begun blogging this story. It's going to get quite deep with many twists and turns.

You folks have made some very large assumptions. First of all, God has never obligated himself to step in anywhere where he is not wanted. Secondly, the Boyscouts is not a church. Thirdly, you make fun of the Holy Spirit, but you don't realize that regular church attendance does not mean you listen for His leading. God is not the author of sin. You never look at a wrecked car and blame Honda for a poor design. No it was someone else who failed to drive it correctly. Dont cast the blame for sin at God. Point it at us, sinners, for we are the ones to blame.

"God has never obligated himself to step in anywhere..."

You could have stopped there.

But, there is no such thing as a god, so your comment is worthless. God doesn't step in because God doesn't exist anywhere except in the imaginations of believers.

Anoy: "You folks have made some very large assumptions."

Obviously, because you have the absolute truth, and know different, right.

Anoy: "First of all, God has never obligated himself to step in anywhere where he is not wanted."

So, you talk with god regularly, through your fallible ears, and mind, or, are you god, speaking out.

Anoy: "Secondly, the Boyscouts is not a church."

However, the BSA are supported majority by religious organizations.

Anoy: "Thirdly, you make fun of the Holy Spirit, but you don't realize that regular church attendance does not mean you listen for His leading."

The holy semen that carried the Jesus sperm, has a sexual gender? Wow, and I was thinking spirits weren't gender specific, or, are you suggesting the holy ghost/spirit is also god, an all in one tool.

Anoy: "God is not the author of sin."

Author, carpenter, and building inspector, he created "everything" in the universe in 6 or so days, according to the bible. Uh, doesn't sin become part of the "all". We function as we were designed, god doesn't make mistakes, from what some christians tell me, he's omniscient, thus, he knew of sin well before the creation of mankind.

Anoy: "You never look at a wrecked car and blame Honda for a poor design. No it was someone else who failed to drive it correctly."

If the maker of Honda, was omniscient, and knew that making the car would kill millions of people, then... YES, you can blame Honda for designing, creating, marketing and selling their product.

If a bar sells alcohol to underage minors, and they get killed in a car wreck, I suppose the bartender shouldn't be held accountable because they didn't design the beer. Uh, that's retarded, the bartender is well aware the alcohol makes people drunk, and a drunk person driving a car can lead them to wreck. Our small laws have figured that out. However, if the bartender were omniscient, how the flock do you say that the bartender isn't responsible.

Your bartender called god, pours temptation into the gene pool, and then places Adam and Eve deliberately into an exposed position. Either your god is an idiot people designer, or your god deliberately created mankind to become exactly as they are.

Anoy: "Dont cast the blame for sin at God. Point it at us, sinners, for we are the ones to blame."

Right, everyone is to blame but the ultimate omnipotent, omniferous, omnibenevelont, omniscient, etc., god, who is totally responsible for creating humanity.

The next time you are responsible for a car wreck there Anoy, why don't you tell the cop that its not the designer's fault your brakes failed, but that you just "suck" at defensive driving tactics, yeah, let me know how it all turns out.

I felt that i had to say this... "Judge not least ye be judged..."

I am a Christian and will always be, let the media eat this up, because anything they can use against the Church they will (they have extremely liberal views).. If this was a public school this would have been covered up by the media.

I am not a member their, but i am a CHRISTIAN!!!

Former Trinity Pastor Back In Jail On New Sex Charge

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Dr. Bob Gray, already facing charges he molested young girls decades ago while pastor of Trinity Baptist Church, was rearrested Thursday on an additional count of sexual battery -- this time the alleged victim is a young boy.

Gray, 80, had been free on $25,000 bond on three counts of capital sexual battery filed in May.

Gray, pastor of Trinity for nearly 40 years, also headed the church's primary school and college. In previous charges, he was accused of molesting young girls in his office and on church grounds in the early 1980s.

Gray retired from Trinity in 1992, but remained active in revivals and Bible conferences across America and in Europe.

The alleged victim in the new charge is a 33-year-old Palatka man who told investigators said Gray molested him numerous times when he was a 9-year-old student at Trinity Christian School.

Gray turned himself in Thursday morning after learning of the new charge.

At Gray's first appearance, prosecutors argued that Gray should not be allowed to post bond.


Former pastor Robert Gray was released from jail May 26 on $25,000 bond.

"Not only, now, do we believe he was a danger to young girls, but we now believe he is a danger to young boys," Assistant State Attorney Libby Senterfitt told the judge. "We do think that indicates he is more a danger to our community than we originally thought."

But Judge Henry Davis set bond at $25,000 on the new charge in addition to the $25,000 Gray posted in May.

Just last week, Gray pleaded not guilty to the previous charges.

Friends and supporters of the victims in the courtroom Thursday were upset that he would be freed again.

"I've known for years, because I'm friends with some of the victims," Allison Heim said. "I think (the bond) is way too low."

Also in court Thursday, prosecutors said that the victims in the case had received threatening e-mails from members of Gray's family.

And more:

Pastor Bob Gray Arrested Again: Accused of Molesting a Boy Years Ago

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The former pastor of Trinity Baptist Church, Dr. Bob Gray, has been arrested again on sex charges.

Gray appeared in court Thursday morning.

First Coast News has learned the new charges stem from a recent interview that JSO detectives had with a potential victim earlier this week.

The latest person to accuse Gray of molestation is a man.

Gray already has been charged with three counts of capital sexual battery. He is accused of molesting three girls decades ago. The victims are now adults in their 30s and 40s.

More than twenty women have come forward with molestation claims since First Coast News began working with JSO sex crimes investigators and the State Attorney's office months ago.

Many of the women, who spoke exclusively with anchor Jeannie Blaylock, claimed church leaders at Trinity Baptist Church knew about the allegations and tried to sweep everything under the rug.

Trinity Baptist issued a statement from Pastor Tom Messer on its website. Messer informs the congregation that Dr. Gray has resigned as a Board Member and missionary with the Baptist Mission to Forgotten Peoples.

Stay with First Coast News. We will have more on this developing story beginning at 5 p.m., including an exclusive interview with the victim who told detectives Bob Gray molested him when he was a boy.

Yes. Christians sin. The fact that ya'll rejoice in this is sad. Don't know of any websites that gloat about Atheist immorality. Why is that? Because Atheists have no basis for morality. They just mock others and mock God. It makes them feel good.

Atheist logic-
I mock God,
Therefore God doesn't exist.

Tim, you sound like the frog in the well in Aesop fables which think the well is the only and whole world and blame and curse the people as liars and blasphemers who talk about the world out of the well.

Tim, tell me why only xnity can be the basis of moral. For many thousand years there was no xnity in the eastern world (China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc.). So are you saying that the whole multi billion people of the eastern world are immoral or amoral because there was no xnity? Now, do you see yourself as a totally crazy nut who babbles meaningless words that even yourself don't understand?

And, if you are not ashamed enough yet, you thick skinned camel like idiotish noble goddish man, tell me also how much you know or experience other religions except the three religions from the damned fucking middle east. (I'm sorry for my not very noble words. But It's difficult for me to tell about the three damned fucking relgions without those necessary words.)

And Tim, this article isn't about some poor Christian — it's about a revered Christian leader, oft extolled for his piety!

UPDATE:

Dr. Gray's Newest Alleged Sex Abuse Victim Consolidated With Others for Trial

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The former pastor accused of molesting children from his church was arraigned on new charges Tuesday morning.

Police arrested Dr. Robert Gray back in May.

More than 20 women have come forward saying Dr. Gray, the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church for 38 years, molested them.

Gray says he's not guilty.

He was arraigned on new charges Tuesday, including one stemming from a man who recently stepped forward.

The judge decided the new charges of capital sexual battery would be consolidated with the rest of the alleged victim's charges.

The pre-trial, now with the additional alleged victim, is set for September 15.

The trial is set for November 27th.

All of you are leaving out a very important person. His name is Satan. God did not create sin. God does not pour temptation into our lives. That is what Satan (the Devil) does. It is funny how all you "ex-Christians" talk like you know what's going on when you actually have no idea. You've made up your mind and don't care to listen to others when they have the truth. That's your right. Sadly though, you are wrong. Sin is the absence of God. Without God, Satan steps in and temps us to sin. Yes, Bob Gray was a Pastor and all that...BUT...he's human. Our profession does not expempt us from Satan and his ways. Even though God is omnipotent, He has given everybody a free will. Sin did not exist until Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden when Satan tempted them. Before you go bashing Christianity, learn your facts. As sad as it is, I can't help but laugh at some of these posts and how incredibly stupid they sound. Half of you have no idea what you're talking about. Everybody is intitled to their own opinion, but make sure you know what you're talking about. Do your research.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my research in Christian mythology indicates that God created Satan.

According the the writer of the book of Revelation (Rev 4:11), everything, and I'm guessing that would include Satan, was made for God's pleasure.

I'm also under the impression that God knew everything from before creation, so he knew what Satan would do, how Satan would tempt mankind, and that nearly all of humanity, as a result, would land in hell. Still, HE went forward with this destined-to-failure plan anyway.

All this horror propogated on the holy altar of so-called free-will? Sounds screwy to me.

To fundynonymous poster #9,014,622:

The characteristic of omniscience combined with the alleged tendency to exercise control assigned to your god precludes the existence of free will. You will very likely not understand this no matter how it is explained, so I'll leave it at that.

Anonym-ass said: "As sad as it is, I can't help but laugh at some of these posts and how incredibly stupid they sound."

Yet, swimming hammers; winged beings; firey chariots; witchcraft; ghosts; zombies; unicorns; giants; bloody rivers...and a talking domestic ass(welp, better make that two, including your post) sound "incedibly" what?..."smart"?..."clever"?...how does THAT stuff sound, Anon?..."real"?..."neato"?..."scientific"?..."practical"?..."likely"?..."probable"?

Right, that's what I thought.

Webmaster
You are wrong. God did not create Satan. He created the angels for His glory. Lucifer decided he wanted to be God and so God made Hell and cast him into it and Lucifer changed his own name to Satan. Everything was made for God's pleasure. Think of it this way. Whoever came up with the internet did so for the the good of all people. However, he knew that anything can be used for bad by the wrong people. God created everything for His good, but man has the uncanny ability of screwing everything up. And why is it that people will spend years trying to fight God and the Bible and the "religion" of Christianity, but they leave well enough alone the other religions such as hinduism, judaism, muslim, etc.? doesn't make much sense to me.

BoomSLANG
I have absolutely no idea what the heck you're trying to say. Unicorns, zombies, ghosts...what are you talking about. The bloody river, talking ass, and whitchcraft are all real, but what's your point? The bloody river was a plague (something that can really happen and God warned the people about), the talking ass was a miracle (Since He is God and can do whatever He wants to), and whitchcraft is Satan's domain. It's what his followers do. Again, all you're doing is babbling...get to the point.

to everybody who likes to argue about God's omniscience...it's not worth trying to explain to you because you refuse to understand and thus will remain willfully ignorant...so there is no point in trying to explain it.

Anon,

So, your god created lucifer without knowing that lucifer was going to become satan? Your god had no foreknowlege, whatsoever, that his beautiful little angel was going to turn into an asshole? And here, I thought your god planned everything (for his good and pleasure).

And if your god creates for his good and for his pleasure...then why did he create hell? There were numerous thing that your god could have with lucifer other than setting him up with his own lofty flat and flourishing business.

"God created everything for His good, but man has the uncanny ability of screwing everything up."

If your God created everything for His pleasure, then it follows that it is His pleasure that His plan be realized, yes? Well, in order for your God's plan to be realized, Lucifer/Satan and Man must screw everything up. Otherwise, there is no need for atonement or eternal punishment. Therefore, Lucifer and Man are perfect cogs in the designs of your God.

"And why is it that people will spend years trying to fight God and the Bible and the "religion" of Christianity, but they leave well enough alone the other religions such as hinduism, judaism, muslim, etc.?"

Site title: Ex-Christian.net.

Site Purpose and Disclaimer

If this were Ex-Muslim.net, or Ex-Hindu.net, or Ex-Jew.net, perhaps more people would discuss those faiths.

"Unicorns, zombies, ghosts...what are you talking about."

Not sure what boomSLANG was aiming at here, but there is a valid point to be made anyway.

You - and most of your Christian brethren - would would be highly critical of such things as unicorns, zombies, UFOs, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, or ghosts and demand loads of evidence for these myths. Yet, you accept without question the existence of talking snakes, dragons, magic, angels, demons, or the resurrection of the dead. All because you read about them in a book.

"...it's not worth trying to explain to you because you refuse to understand and thus will remain willfully ignorant..."

Actually, I'm quite willing to understand. Unfortunately, it is seemingly impossible to fully resolve the tension between omniscience and free will. Philosophers and theologians alike have debated this for centuries, but without limiting this (omniscience) and other characteristics attributed to God through the Bible, it seems there will never be an answer that will satisfy everyone.

Of course, I suspect that you are quite happy to accept it regardless of tension. So in one sense we agree - we will not agree.

Fundonymous said: "BoomSLANG
I have absolutely no idea what the heck you're trying to say. Unicorns, zombies, ghosts...what are you talking about(?)."

A "zombie" is dead person who comes back to life; a "ghost" is an invisible being, as in a "Holy ghost"; a "unicorn" is a ONE-horned animal with the body and head of a horse, the hind legs of a stag, and the tail of a lion---like the one found in the book of Job. Now, if a 4th grader knows the difference between an "ox" and a "unicorn", but biblegod does not?...then he's not worth my worship, nor should I trust anything else he has to say. ' Hope this clears it up.

Fundonymous said: "The bloody river, talking ass, and whitchcraft are all real, but what's your point?"

My point?...my point is that they're NOT real. If what makes them "real" to you is because it's written down in a book, then Pinnochio is real; Allah is real; Toth is real; the toothfairy is real----basically any concept is "real".

Fundy: "The bloody river was a plague (something that can really happen and God warned the people about), the talking ass was a miracle (Since He is God and can do whatever He wants to), and whitchcraft is Satan's domain. It's what his followers do."

"(Since He is God and can do whatever He wants to)". Interesting, "He" can do anything "He" wants to, except prove that "He" exists. How utterly convenient is that? D'oh! lol

Anon---if God has revealed "Himself" specifically to you, then could you please give a vivid detailed description? Height, weight, eye color, shoe-size, etc.(' Anxiously waiting to know what the creator of the Universe actually looks like.)

Fundy: "Again, all you're doing is babbling...get to the point."

I made point 4000 posts ago. No evidence---no belief. When/if someone actually complies, I'll stop "babbling". Thanks.

Anony-fundie said: "You are wrong. God did not create Satan."

Well then I guess we have two creators in this universe. Or, God was unaware that he'd created Lucifer with the ability to become what he became. I mean, if GOD created an angel named Lucifer, he must also have created this poor schmuck with the potential to become his evil side-kick. Creating a potential evil is the same as creating evil, especially when you know exactly what's going to happen next. I mean, if I KNOW my little creation is going to raise "hell" before I create it, and I do it anyway, well, won't I share in the blame? Doesn't Dr. Frankenstein bear any responsibility for his monster?

Anony-fundie said: "man has the uncanny ability of screwing everything up."

Didn't GOD create man with those abilities? Didn't GOD know man would use those abilities to do exactly what man has done?

Anony-fundie asked: "And why is it that people will spend years trying to fight God and the Bible and the "religion" of Christianity."

As was said by others already: because we are ex-Christians. I'm not an ex-something else, so I don't have any emotional baggage from those other religions. I still think those religions are bunk, however. In a way, anony, you and I are very alike. I think all religions are bunk. You think all but one religion is bunk.

Came across this page by searching for more information about Dr. Bob Grey and was heartbroken to read some of your posts. Please understand, I don't want to pretend to have the answers, and I realize you don't care about my "I feel so bad for you" feelings. I believe you all have some very valid questions, and I believe that you deserve answers, and how I wish I could begin to answer them. But I cant! The God I trust with my eternity, that same God that you all now wholly reject, said in His Word (which i realize carries little or no weight here, and that you are all very aware of the illustration and verse)that He is the Potter and we are the clay, and that questioning Him or looking for explanations simply is not part of the plan. He did say though, that to offset these feelings, that He would send the Holy Spirit into my heart to be a guide and comforter (again, please umderstand that I know you all know this well enough), and that He would "teach me all things". I know that there was a day, where once I was lost, and now I am found. A day that the Spirit of God took up residence in my heart, to help me fight the sinful nature already having a heyday with my thoughts and decisions. Again, I realize that the last sentence is redundent for you all, and that you have at one time or another been to this same point, by brainwashing, pressure or whatever. I said all that to say this, I could spend the rest of my life denying what took place that day. I could easily go back to my old thoughts and feelings and concepts and questions. But what I cannot do is pretend that God did not change me the day I put my faith in Christ. I realize what your going to tell me in light of all your unanswered questions and God's SILENCE, i'm the big fool. I bought into all the "mystical Holy Spirit nonsense" and "do it before it's too late you bad sinner on your way to hell" coaxing. I know that I carry no weight here, nor do my "feelings" have anything to do with your REALITY. I truly appreciate even the fact that you took time to read this and here my point of view, however misguided it may be. In light of the story I said I was searching for (Pastor Grey) we Christians are in general, a pretty sorry excuse for the "prophets of the truth" we are supposed to be, and I could be chief. But what I cannot do is deny what Christ did in my heart. Am I mistaken? Foolish? Needy? Holy? Idiotic? No, i'm just not lost anymore. I try to remember "lost" sometimes, but can't. I certainly remember all the other stuff, the sin (not that it's gone, but certainly different), the lust (not that it's gone), the pride (certainly not gone, but also different), the world revolves around me! But the "lost" I can't remember. How I got from the "lost" to the "found" I can't prove nor explain. Maybe you are all RIGHT though, and I am the fool. Perhaps Jesus was mistaken, or just made up, or simply misunderstood. But considering the options, and considering Christ's words of love for me, and what He "supposedly" accomplished on that cross, and His "promises" even if they are all false, this story of love and forgivness is just too good for me refuse or reject. You will have to forgive my simplicity of mind, but I could live a thousand years and not turn down that love, nor deny what He did inside me heart. I know you have "heard it all before" so these words as meaningless as they are foolish. As useless as it might be, and though your probably already aware, I do thank God for His promise that if you ever did at one time trust Him as your Savior, though you may reject Him, He cannot dany Himself, nor the part of Him He placed within you the day you "believed". Again, I know that this all falls on deaf ears, and I truly am not trying to "preach to the choir" which I hope you can sense in my words, but at least give me credit for being completely CONVINCED, even if I am completely WRONG.

A fool for Him.