News of interest to former Christians


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The following is an excerpt of a recent Christianity Today editorial
Lonnie Latham, a member of the Southern Baptist Convention executive committee and pastor of a large Tulsa, Oklahoma, church, resigned from both positions in January after police arrested him for allegedly attempting to solicit a male undercover officer for oral sex. Earl Paulk, pastor of an Atlanta-area mega-church, has dodged allegations of sexual impropriety for years. But in August 2005, a female employee sued him, alleging he arranged for his brother and visiting pastors to have sex with her. The International Communion of Charismatic Churches (ICCC)—an association Paulk developed—forced him to resign as archbishop in October.

...stories abound of pastors snared by sexual transgression. The problems transcend theology and ecclesiology. A pervasive culture of sensuality and disregard for communal accountability guarantees that some pastors will struggle with all sorts of sexual temptation. Toss into this mix the Internet's availability and anonymity, which have spread the reach of pornography and clandestine sexual encounters. The challenge to help our pastors resist temptation demands a wise church response. First, we must enact clear and enforceable standards that will guard against temptation. Then, our churches must implement plans for discipline and restoration when possible.

Leadership reports that up to 12 percent of pastors have admitted to "inappropriate physical involvement outside marriage." And 38 percent of pastors said Internet pornography tempts them.

"Even with extensive coverage of clergy misconduct over the past decade, congregations still make no plans for handling moral failure until it happens. Then it's too late," Leadership managing editor Eric Reed writes.

Whether and when the pastor returns to ministry needs to be handled with care and on an individual basis. But given the nature of sexual sin, pastors who return to public ministry should probably be the exception. In most instances, the transgression undermines the trust necessary to minister. Charles Spurgeon offered one criterion when he quoted pastor John Angell James in his lectures to students: "When a preacher of righteousness has stood in the way of sinners, he should never again open his lips in the great congregation until his repentance is as notorious as his sin."

For the entire article, click here.


What I find interesting about this article is that while it honestly admits to significant moral failure in Christian leadership, the tone is nearly one of inevitability, as in "you know it's going to happen," not to mention the excuse: "A pervasive culture of sensuality and disregard for communal accountability."

I wonder what ever happened to promise of a magical holy sprite of Gawd? I guess hormones are way more powerful than any old infilling of the holy spirte. Now it takes accountability partners, or something, to keep men of Gawd from slipping into bed with congregants, or whomever. I wonder how any of those early holy men of Gawd ever survived in old Pagan Rome, with all those temple prostitutes batting their eyelashes?

This is almost a blatant admission by Christianity Today that there is nothing supernatural about Christianity.

I guess I'd agree.
 
Blogger The Liberal Pagan said...
no argument there. i was a member of earl paulk's church for almost 14 years and i got to see first hand what a mess he made and i know personally more than 10 women he seduced and had affairs with. paulk's church isn't really a church, it's a cult. and yeah, those guys are snakes and don't care if their god tells them not to screw around, they're going to screw around. ah well. maybe its just part of having so many rules they are supposed to follow their whole lives that makes them insane.


Anonymous Lorena said...
Hey Ben,

Maybe I should change the title of my blog posting to "Everybody, including the pastors, were having sex but me."

Honest, it never ceases to amaze how naive and gullible I was believing that Christians actually make an effort to follow the rules.

Bunch of hypocrites!

Lorena


Blogger blaine said...
Guess what organization is helping Lonnie Latham because they feel a person should not be arrested for committing sexual acts in private if they are consenting adults?
The ACLU, which I find ironic since most Christians consider the ACLU to be nothing but an organization that wants to steal our rights[actually the rights of the holy Christians who are being so mercilessly tortured in America] and is an organization of Satan.


Blogger Bill Dearmore said...
I have to partly disagree with you, Lorena. Certainly a lot of them are hypocrites, but I think not all. Others are desperate people who feel helpless and hopeless in their vain attempt to do what they believe is right.

As one who was a very sincere and dedicated fundy for forty years, and the son, grandson, and nephew of dedicated fundy preachers, I have formed a hypothesis. Maybe somebody could devise a study of some kind to verify or refute it. I don't know how.

My hypothesis is that good, but mislead, church leaders and others sometimes set such unreasonably high standards for themselves that it is impossible to meet them. After all, Jesus said "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28

No reasonably normal man (or woman, either) can go through life and never commit sexual lust. (President Carter made the mistake of admitting to Playboy Magazine that he had "committed adultery with many women" in his heart.)

When a person feels totally defeated and helpless to stop "sinning" because of natural and normal lust, then taking it physical can be just a short step further in his or her deluded mind.

Some way, we have to do a better job of teaching people that a certain amount of lust is normal and good, while taking it physical inappropriately is a different matter entirely.

That won't solve the whole problem, but maybe it'll help some of them beat the terrible desperation that leads to their crimes.


Blogger Bentley said...
Yeah Lorena, I thought I was buying into something 100% solid, since I kept self-imposed restrictions on myself, I was certainly expecting poeple whom claimed a higher calling, to have more strength in restraint than me.

But now that I'm out of the cult, I am convinced even more everyday that religion is just a mental fantasy game that people play to make themselves look like they are better than or more supreme than others.

People will say, I'm a Christian!

My answer: Well so what? Is that the best you can do? I believe you could do better, leave Christianity.


Blogger xrayman said...
I remember when I was in my sinful days of partying and screwing anything that moved, Jimmy Swaggart was at the top of his game. He was the closest thing to Gawd there was. I would watch his sermons once in a while, and it was as if he was talking directly to me when he mentioned the type of people who would burn if they were not saved. I must admit I got a little scard at times. How great it was when the motherfucker was outed by the hooker he was jerking off to. That was some good stuff. He was a much of a perv as the next guy. Iroically that motherfucker is still on at 5:30am looking like a Saturday Night Live character of his former self, yet he still wants us to send him money. Funny Funny Shit !!!!!!!!!

A lot of the time being a preacher is all about money, power, and control not about morality.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
The article was real. I disagree that there were any excuses made for their behavior. It merely stated that it is easy to get involved in these things given the provocative culture we live in. If you dont believe that, just watch VH1 or MTV or google anything to do with sex. The stuff is everywhere. As far as the comments that they need accountability partners and that demonstrates that there is nothing supernatural to Christianity, I believe that is the problem too many times. Why does there always have to be some great sign in the sky for people? Scripture never teaches that, on the contrary it teaches against it and tells us to have accountability partners. (Though not in those words). I thought that the article was good, it didnt wax elephant but said "Hey there is a problem".


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
What I think this whole topic illustrates, as much as anything, is that there is no such thing as a "new creature" through the power of the so-called Holy Spirit.

I have to agree with Bill when he says a certain amount of lust is natural. Inappropriate behavior has nothing to do with noticing when an attractive person strolls by. We are sexual beings, just like all the other mammals, and without that attribute, we'd be at risk of quickly dying out within a generation or two. It's not just our quick wits that have made us the dominate species on Earth, it is also our frequent and relatively quick reproductivity.

Hormones are not affected at all by the supposedly magical Holy Spirit, and when people are expected to adopt and maintain unnaturally constricting sexual inhibitions, even in their thoughts, well, the pressure is likely to eventually mount and the top is very likely to blow.

Perhaps a historical example of an inhibited people group is the pre-WWII Japanese. When the war began and the restrictions and inhibitions of their culture were relaxed, they exploded with a perverse ferocity that was seemingly out of character. I believe that long years of inhibited behavior, ingrained into them by their culture, helped contribute to many of the horrific things done by many of them during the war.

But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

Conclusion?

(1), Attempt to confine our sexuality too strictly, and it will eventually break out violently and make a mess.

And (2), there is no magical Holy Sprite transforming people into Jesus clones.


Anonymous Lorena said...
Hey Bill Dearmore,

I agree. Many Christians are sincere and try to follow the rules. I, too, was one of them.

In my experience, however, it was the popular and the cool that were more likely to be in positions of power. And those were the hypocrites, the ones that looked good on Sunday and partied during the week.

The geeky, sincere type, like me, were rarely given any opportunity to "serve" the Lord in those positions. The cool people had their elite group and others could't make it into it.

Ah sure, I could serve. Doing things they didn’t want to do. And when I did they exploited me. They used my desire to please and be accepted to make me work really hard for free.

Church to me was as hurtful and disheartening as being in high school surrounded by bullies.

Best,

Lorena


Blogger mq59 said...
Lorena,

That sounds like a really cliquey youth group (high school-level).

Was it high school, or are you describing the entire church?

If it's the entire church, why not simply find another church that doesn't operate like that rather than "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"?


Anonymous Lorena said...
MG59,

I tried sooooooooo many churches.
You sound like one of the populars. For you guys, church is great. You don't bother obeying anything. You just look good and pretend to be holy.

My advice: stay there, be happy.

I don't go to any church anymore because I don't like YOU guys. And because I am convinced that you are the way you are because of the SCREWED UP THINGS you believe.

So, go to church, pretend, be happy, and leave me alone.

Ah! Yes, and read your bible a lot and pray. You will end up de-coverted like me.

Lorena

P.S. You must think I am really stupid if you assume I never thought of trying another church--talk about patronizing somebody.


Blogger mq59 said...
I was just wondering, Lorena. Sorry if I hurt your feelings--that wasn't what I was intennding.

Actually, in one of the churches I attended growing up, I WAS one of the "outsiders," the ones who actually gave a rip while the popular people *sometimes* behaved immorally (no way of knowing for sure, since most of what I heard about who did what was rumor).

You and I have a lot in common.


Blogger mq59 said...
Furthermore, some people brought up in the really culty churches are told their church is the only true form of Christianity, so when they finally work up the gumption to leave, they don't bother with any other church.

Obviously you tried many different churches, so you're not one of those people.

The scenario you're describing sounds more like something that went on in some suburban mega-church than in some church in the sticks with an excessively long name like "Free will baptist church of God reformation of 1915"


Anonymous Lorena said...
MG59,

I hate to break this to you, but I am not a youth and gave Christianity all I had.

I am not sure if you are a man or a woman. So if you are a man, we don't have so much in common, as the church treats men with much more respect.

You didn't hurt my feelings. You insulted me, which is different. But you just did what most Christians do. When someone is not happy with the faith, they immediately assume that the person is a neophyte who hardly tried the faith.

What you guys don't realize is that people like me tried to hang on to the faith for as long as we could. We rationalized the ugly things we saw. We found explanations for the biblical blunders. We really wanted to believe. We only left when we couldn't take it anymore--I have read the entire bible more times than I care to tell you about.

Lorena


Blogger mq59 said...
Well, I did not mean to insult you then. I merely wanted to clarify something.

And not all churches "value men more than women."


Anonymous boomSLANG said...
"....not all churches "value men more than women."


...and that's because "not all churches" interpret the bible the exact same way. And if we pick an arbitrary number and say that 3999 churches can all have the wrong interpretation, then it's not a stretch to say that 4000 have it wrong.


Anonymous Lorena said...
MG59,

I don't know what you think you are doing recommending Christians books to me.

I am a deconverted Christian and you are just wasting your time. You recommend a book, just written, about an issue that secular women have been dealing with for decades now. (The church is, as usual, behind on all things modern.)

Why would I read a book that discusses outdated beliefs that I no longer hold. I don't swear. But you make me want to learn.

You should go preach to people you actually have hopes of converting.

Leave me alone.

Lorena


Blogger mq59 said...
Cool. Have a good night.

(or is it good morning, since it's technically 1:48).


Blogger Onanite said...
I thought this article was pretty interesting. Most Christians know they are living lies, they just don't realize that every other Christian is living a lie also.

I love it when these hypocrites are found out, but much of the time their "sin" is covered up by their institutions. Take the Catholic priests scandals for instance. Many of these guys have been molesting children for centuries, and the church has known about it. They were just able through their power to keep it under wraps.

There is nothing special about being a Christian, although they purport to have God actually inhabit their being through the Holy Spirit. If this were true, then when they "sin" they take god with them.

I wonder how God like jacking off to a prostitute with Jimmy Swaggart?

Onanite


Blogger mq59 said...
For centuries? Those must be some pretty long-lived priests. :)

I do hope one of those immortal pervert priests wasn't Darius from the "Highlander" TV series--he was so respectable. :)

(j/k)

Seriously, I did some reading on this and the ones who're molesting children (in the US) all became priests during a specific period of time sometime in the 1960s. This could be relatively recent problem.

Of course, there was also a mega-pervo priest in Ireland


Blogger mq59 said...
Shoot. Why did I hit "post" before I even finished the post?

Hmm...I'll have to look into the Irish priest. The Wikipedia article on him said he was actively pedophilic (sp?) for about 30 years and was exposed (and killed himself) relatively recently.

I'll need to see the timeframe in which he operated.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Pastors (fundie ones) tend to be alpha males. Lots of testosterone. Women desire men who lead and command other males. In churces, this means the pastors.

Men at the tops of totem poles anywhere (politics, religion, academia, business) get up to shenannigans. Means, motive, and plenty of opportunity.


Blogger J. C. Samuelson said...
MQ,

Do you really believe priests abusing their authority for sexual favors (or any favors for that matter) is something new? If you do, take off the rose-tinted goggles and read some history - even basic, highschool level history would help.

People have abused positions of authority (including priests) since time immemorial and you know it. Please don't delude yourself by thinking priests have ever been exempt from falling to temptation.

Sorry for the angry tone here, but you're not that stupid and neither are we, so please think a bit before you post something like this again.


Blogger mq59 said...
Ubergeek,

I am well aware that people (esp. men) in positions of power can use that it get sex.

I was merely saying that I thought the Catholic pedophile priest thing began relatively recently--I'm not saying that priests never misused their position to get sex before.

After all, I think the Marquis de Sade wrote a story about a priest seducing a woman in the confession booth--he had to get the idea from somewhere.

BTW, do you post on the Alternate History.com web-site? There's someone there with the exact same user-name as you.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
"My hypothesis is that good, but mislead, church leaders and others sometimes set such unreasonably high standards for themselves that it is impossible to meet them"

How is politely requesting that the pastor/priest politely refrain from raping the 5 year old little boys in the nursery unreasonable?

"Some way, we have to do a better job of teaching people that a certain amount of lust is normal"

My fundamentalist/preacher/worship leader-uncle, spiking my drink with vodka, then taking me behind a car dealership in an attempt to rape me when I was 14 years old is "normal"?

"If you dont believe that, just watch VH1 or MTV or google anything to do with sex. The stuff is everywhere."

Oh yes, here we go with the "victim blaming game". It's the TV. The radio. The length of her skirt. The little 5 year old boy who dared take his shirt off when he playes soccer. I guess it was my fault my pervert fundy uncle tried to rape me. I am, after all, just one of those "evil" females sent by the devil to turn men (God's glory) away from the gospel.


Blogger Shannon said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.


Blogger Shannon said...
Anonymous 4/12/06 1: 53 AM

What you speak of is not what most people would consider normal sexual conduct. I don’t think anyone here is saying that lusting after 5 or 14 year olds should be considered within the normal confines of desire.

For me, regardless of how high a standard is set, once a person excepts that particular standard, he/she needs to uphold it. Now, do I think abstinence and celibacy are ridiculous concepts that are bound to fail? Sure. And do I think abstinence and celibacy promoted as gloridied lifestyles should go away? Sure. Should we redefine what is considered a deviancy? Sure. Should we get to be good people who are lusty people, too? Sure. Should we be gluttonous about it? No. Should we be flagrant about it? No.

There has to be line between all or none.


Blogger J. C. Samuelson said...
MQ,

As far as the Catholic pedophile priests are concerned, it may or may not be a recently developed phenomena. I'm inclined to think that this is merely the result of greater exposure of a problem that has a long history in the priesthood. Of course, there's really no way we'll ever know.

Nope. I don't post to the site you mention. I use this username for several forums, but I've never even been to that site.


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