"patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications."

So the psychological effect of prayer in this case was NEGATIVE....I find that hilarious!!
Thanks alot, god!!! Good lookin out for your creation!

Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God!

What good would faith be if there was concrete proof?

God has to make it look like it doesn't work, in order to seperate the faith of the sheep from the unbelieving goats.

That way when the good shepherd comes to gather his flock he's only going to find the most easily led and pliable sheep who've got the softest wool and the juiciest flesh. He doesn't want to have to put up with jumpy goats who are harder to control and have got stringier meat.

Mmmm. Lamb.

Millions were praying for Terry Schiavo, and also Pope John Paul II.

The only conclusion you can come to if you see the world as it really is, is that there may be a God that answers prayer, it just doesn't answer human prayer. Obviously, we were created just like all other forms of life on this planet, to have a certain life span, die and return to the earth. TRILLIONS of living things have done just that. I see no evidence that the force that created everything has ever intervened in this process.

Maybe we should think a little more about the idea of living forever. There is a good chance that our creator is a tad smarter than us.
Dan (Homo sapiens, Rationalist)

Let’s just pretend that a God exists while this post is being read. I say pretend, because no one knows if a God exists except by faith. So if a God did exist and Christianity will tell you He does exist (no reliable documented evidence) and they also tell you this God is omnipotent and all knowing. As an almighty creator and controller of life, being omnipotent and all knowing, then this God can manage things for himself without outside interference from those indoctrinated, be they individuals or groups. So there should be no need for anyone to intercede on his behalf? I find that leading religious faith beliefs, worldwide, such as Judaism, Christianity or Islam, preaching intolerance of others under the guise of love and compassion, as one of the most divisive issues this planet faces today. Killing people in the name of a God is nothing less than hypocrisy. Christianised George Bush has made the comment that God told him to attack Iraq. Prayer is a function that never receives answers even when the bible say it will. John 14: verses 12,13,14.
Prayer groups themselves that I attended years ago discussed why their prayers never got answered. I used to hear such comments as, ‘You need to ask in Jesus name’, It’s not God’s timing’, ‘It’s not God’s will at this point of time’, ‘God is trying to show you something’, ‘God wants you to suffer to strengthen you’, ‘We must have a sinner in the camp’. They make these contradictory comments even though the mythological Jesus supposedly said in Mark 11:23-24. that they will.
If an all knowing omnipotent Creator exists or even if it doesn't, then prayer becomes a time waster.

Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

These people are comical. That's all I can say. It's not that it was an incredibly complicated experiment involving genetics and atoms. Geezz!

I just wrote something on my blog closely related to that. If anyone cares to read it go here: http://exfundamentalist.blogspot.com/

Lorena

Prayer is a narcissitic act to feel one has some control over ones environment.This is one of 3
major studies in 2 years that proves prayer is only for the one doing the praying.This is the first to state that it actually does harm,..I totally agree!

Dr. Harold G. Koenig: "..., said the results did not surprise him. There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said."

So, there is no cause and effect according to this professor regarding prayer. Great, then of course, that means, prayer, is useless, as no cause can be attributed, either from a scientific or theological view.

No one will ever know, is this approach, however, I am sure this professor sees the "I don't know", as much more favorable than the actual results of the study, which show a negative for relying on prayer as a potential variable in recovery.

Christians are always saying; I'll pray for God to heal your Heart.

Like they are interupting their busy God and putting in a special request on your behalf by having an honorable or personal relationship with their God that they have earned, by having a belief in the first place.

My 85 yr old dad just had a triple by-pass last year.I did'nt utter one prayer, but I did spend two months living w/ and taking care of him,...he has fully recovered!
Prayer is just a cheap and superficial way of pretending to care and/or help someone.(by the way he is an atheist,...chalk one up for good old humanism!)

Prayer does not change anything. Because there is no god who knows all languages.

Thus, it only change the praying person.

emptylogic

Emptycan: "Prayer does not change anything. Because there is no god who knows all languages."

Simply amazing, having the capability to speak on behalf of an illiterate god, it does appear now, that there is only one true language, yours of course. So, are all your prayers answered? No. Then it appears you speak the wrong language.

Another well designed study to indicate that prayer has no effect. The percentage of prayed-for patients that experienced complications is slightly higher, but is not significant, attributable to statistical variation alone rather than an external contributing factor(s). Of course the "faithful" will ignore it, as they always choose to ignore the facts until they finally grow a backbone and confront the fallacies of their beliefs.

Piprus,..it could be that the ones prayed for did less in the natural,
(as did those around them)to self-help the conditions.You see this in x-tian prayer lines where 300 lb
people recieve weekly healings for back and feet problems.

Well, consider if the heart patient is a god believer, they might be scared shitless that gawd might say "f" you.

i think before one makes such bold remarks as shown here, one has to TRULY be interested and look aLOT deeper than most do these days. God became man. HE WALKED THE EARTH. i dont think he should be "required" to heal all sick and make all bad good when he himself left his return up to us. we are to further his kingdom. he is not interested in keeping us alive on this beautiful but broken earth. we already had our chance with that. he now wants a true and faithful following. By turning away from him when problems occur, or sarcastically thanking him for "lookin out for his creation", we further the gap between us and him. He desires true love. true love cannot occur if a perfect being whom ALL things and beings have been created by, jumps in front of us and does something that totally reveals himself to us. why is that? because we would be in such jawdropping awe that we would not be able to deny him. the in ability to deny him causes lack of choice and therefore lack of ability to TRULY love him. also, in western societies, we tend to enjoy being served; this occurs to the point of kind of "expecting" it. we are entended to serve God. he isnt intended to serve us....though he does which in and of itself is amazing and should humble us down to the point where we could love him sheerly because of what weve done against him while he does sooo very much for us.... neway. wow that was a lot. lol.

to Mr. Jim Lee,

Sir im ashamed of many of those whove claimed Christianity and really lived in almost a cult. i must say that first. i grew up in a "christian household" and was taught all the history and stories etc. i find you very insightful but must add that i am a strong believer. now, more detail on my specific beliefs another time(because most of them differ from the large generalized "christian" beliefs). Your argument against prayer is one that beats most in this context, but the problem is the context. Prayer is answered....if peoples prayers are truly what God is looking for. Most prayers these days are nothing but speeches given stating the obvious. "heal this, help that, do this for me, do that for them" Someone once told me, "true prayers are the deepest groans of the heart" These days, most ppl in western societies are not truly in touch with the deepest groans of their heart and even if the were, then what the really feel might seem "unacceptable" or "ridiculous". Anyway, to get to the main point here, prayer to God (if one speaks of the God represented by the Bible) is absolutley necessary. We are seperated from God and therefore ONLY communicate through prayer. please respond for the sake of a peaceful debate or discussion. thanks for caring enough about this topic to add in your convictions.

if anyone wants to read some interesting stuff about ppl who are against what most so-called "christians" say, do , and/or believe, got to
www.psalters.com
www.jesusradicals.com
www.thesimpleway.org

The Bible says that faith is required for prayer to succeed. If and unbeliever knows that prayers are being offered for healing and they do not believe then it makes sense that the prayers will go unanswered. The mind is a very powerful thing and can affect the body in drastic ways. If an unbeliever does not want Gods help they can psych themselves into getting worse just to “prove” there is no God. People do it all the time. Athiests and non-believers will say that Christians do it all the time as well. Seeing “miracles” where others see coincidence, claiming divine healings where others see good health care. You get the point. This is just an opinion and something to mull over

Dave Poole

Dave Poole: "The Bible says that faith is required for prayer to succeed."

If faith is all you have, then you have no way of ever knowing whether a miracle was or was not attributed to prayer. Bottom line, prayer, is useless. If god already knows "all", then prayer isn't going to sway gods' actions in our lives, therefore, prayer is only for the one who prays, period. If god doesn't already know "all", then obviously your god, isn't much of a god.

Prayer is nothing but an early ritual, used to reinforce ones belief, and thus keep their "faith" strong. Of course, the "faith" that is being strengthened is the "faith" in the people that gave them the ritualistic prayer, not in something in heaven, etc. When I see someone praying, I see also, someone who is claiming to be a loyal part of a group, through ritual. I don't play the ritual game, in order to be part of the in-crowd. So, many different ways, to show ones' loyalty to a cause, such is how the early church grew up, using symbols, to determine friend from foe.

anonymous #3,000,000 must have found a Bable Fish.

I am separated from the wall in my room. The only way I can communicate with my wall is to talk to it. It answers me, but not in a way you would understand.

Anyone want to join me in talking to the wall?

Dave Poole: has there ever, in all the history of your religion, been a documented regeneration of a severed limb through prayer?

Ever?

If not, why not?

To webmaster,

I have not read of a case where a limb was regenerated in recent history. I have read the accounts from the gospels about the ear that Jesus regenerated on the soldier but that is all. And let’s not get into the legitimacy of those accounts because I am not offering those up as evidence to my claim. And what does regenerated limbs have to do with the affects of prayer on heart patients. I thought that was what we were talking about.

Dave Poole

I just read the most recent comments, obviously from xians. Once again, they have no argument except the same old one.

Remember "He/she/they/you weren't a real xian"?

Well, now it looks the argument is "They weren't really prayers."

Apparently they have to be the "right" prayers and prayed the "right" way to be answered.

Answered prayers are just coincidence and unanswered prayers are typical, and a waste of time.

Prayers for those who want to pretend they are making a contibution without really doing anything.

To Heathen Sister,

Dave Poole here. I left the most recent Christian comments you were talking about and you missed my point completely. I never said that people were praying wrong or that they were not praying the right way. If I told you that I was praying for you to (insert prayer request here) and you were opposed to it you would make darn sure it didn’t happen, either consciously or un-consciously. If you don’t have the faith it won’t happen. Faith = answered prayers, No Faith = unanswered prayers.

If those people being studied had no interest in being healed by God then they would not be healed. God does not push Himself on anybody.

Dave Poole

No, in fact, God doesn't "push himself" on anybody. Why?... because "God" is only a concept that exists on paper and in minds. It's the believers in this concept who push their beliefs onto people.

To Boomslang,

Thanks for clearing that up.

"If you don’t have the faith it won’t happen. Faith = answered prayers, No Faith = unanswered prayers."

The story says Jesus reattached the ear — it didn't magically grow back.

Anyway, my point with the regenerated limbs question is this: Don't you think that someone, somewhere, in all of history, must have had a mustard seed of true faith, enough to receive this particular kind of healing?

Another thing, supposedly, some people have been magically raised from the dead, right? So did those dead people have a enough faith? Can you have faith when you're dead?

The fact is, there is not one story about anyone being healed that doesn't fit the description of a perhaps unexpected, but otherwise natural healing.

No one ever grows back a severed limb, because it's impossible. No one is raised from the dead if they are decapitated or their bodies are mangled. And, if you do a little research into the healing ministries of all the modern Christian healers, you'll discover that nearly all the details about the "victims" of these healings are surrounded with secrecy. In all cases the reports are suspect, and more often than not, clearly phony. People get wound up to believe for a healing, feel better for a short time after the circus, and then within a short time fall right back into whatever malady they were suffering. As you implied, the human mind is very powerful. Then, once the people backslide into sickness, they are frequently condemned and criticized by other believers for not having enough faith to maintain their healing.

The Charismatic, Word Faith, and hardcore Pentecostal versions of Christianity are horribly cruel because when prayers aren't answered, too often it's blamed on the person with the need: "There's sin in your life, or you don't have enough faith." The "you just don't have enough faith" attitude is sickening (pun intended).

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do...If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."—John 14:13,14

Long history has shown that this promise is a mushy religious platitude and nothing more. Prayer may be a nice sentiment, it may bring a moment of comfort people, but if you want to be healed, your best bet is to go to the best doctor available.

"Thanks for clearing that up."

Your welcome. And thank YOU for the endless material.

Prayer = Lazy Man’s Effort

To webmaster,

"The story says Jesus reattached the ear — it didn't magically grow back."

Is reachating the ear any less miraculous than it growing back? I don't think so.

And I do agree with you about the Charasmatic and extreme fundies are way out of line when they point fingers at those who are are struggling and blame it on sin or lack of faith. I have seen a lot more of that than I am comfortable with and it is wrong. I have left many churches where this was running rampant.

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do...If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."—John 14:13,14
Personally I believe that asking in His name is meant as asking in his will. I do not feel that praying for things that contradict His teachings is "asking for something in His name".

Dave Poole

Dave Poole:

What I understand you are saying is if you have faith your prayers will be answered.

Gee.....I guess the pope just didn't have any faith cuz millions prayed for him and he died anyway.....or maybe he didn't have enough faith or the "right" faith, maybe.

To Heathen Sister,

I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you? Generally individuals with parkinsons that are as old as he was do die. Living forever or being imortal is probably outside of God's will, and I didn't see modern science doing anything to prevent his death either.

If he had more faith would he have died? Who knows? If those praying for him had more faith would he have died. Who knows? I feel that the scriptures are true. If you have faith and believe you prayers will be answered. Some prayers require a lot of faith. It is not easy to believe that God will save a life cure a disease when we see people die everyday from disease and accidents. It is hard to believe the unusal. It is easier to believe that God can heal an invisable disease like cancer than it is to believe He will re-grow a limb. If you pray for that most people will have that skeptisim and doubt, even as they pray. That is a lack of faith. I know I have the same skeptisism. And it makes me uneasy to say that. I still believe He exists and that He loves me.

Bottom line: I have no idea or good answer for why we do not see more "miracles" from the Lord that are concrete and indisputable. I am not saying He does not exist and does not move amoung His people; I just don't know why He moves the way He does.

Dave Poole

Dave Poole:

"Living forever or being imortal is probably outside of God's will.."

Isn't everything "gawd's will" to a xian? So, why pray? Gawd's gonna do his will regardless.

Prayer is waste of time and energy.

Shit just happens. And I certainly have more peace knowing that than I did when I actually believed in the illusive "gawd" and wondered why he was such an ass hole.

" I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you? "

I've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith, But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?

Mr. Poole, there has never been even so much as a hint of someone having a severed limb regenerated, or a mutilated body raised to life. There has never been so much as a whisper of such a thing.

All magical healings are conveniently of invisible ailments because they are psychosomatic, faked, or naturally explainable. Besides, what’s the point of magical healings from Gawd anyway? Everyone dies, and barring accidents, they die of some ailment, some sickness. Every single person ever born eventually gets sick…and then dies – that’s reality.

Another thing I love is the way Christians will go to any length to re-explain what various verses in the Bible mean when the promises don’t quite match up with reality.

Jesus promised to answer prayers. People pray for healing and are NOT healed. Simple.

“Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.”– James 5:14,15

Whose faith? The victim’s or the elder’s?

Now we’ll get a lesson on exactly what a true “Prayer of Faith™” might be.

To Heathen Sister,

I did not understand your last question. It reaI've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith, But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?

So why not me what? Pleas elaborate.

Dave Poole

"Some prayers require a lot of faith."

"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you..."—Jebus

I know — that's not literal.

You know how I know it's not literal, because no one can do it, that's why.

So, I guess when Jesus promised that when two or three agree on anything on Earth and it would be done for them, that wasn't literal either. I guess when Jesus said ask anything in my name and I will do it, that wasn't literal either.

I've got it now. If something doesn't match up with common sense or reality, then it's just Jebus is only speaking metaphorically, for some mystical reason.

Poole — it's all nonsense. Wake up.

To webmaster,

"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you..."—Jebus

I know — that's not literal"

Who says this is not literal? Perhaps no one has obtained that level of faith as of yet. Is that possible? What do you think?

"So, I guess when Jesus promised that when two or three agree on anything on Earth and it would be done for them, that wasn't literal either. I guess when Jesus said ask anything in my name and I will do it, that wasn't literal either."

If you read my post above you would know my interpretation of 'ask anything in MY NAME'. Read it again and if you don't get it ask some direct questions about it and I will do my best to answer them.

Dave Poole

Faith is nothing more but a very powerful mind control mechanism that religion uses to brainwash the sheep.

Whenever something doesn’t make sense…..”Just have faith”…
When what you are taught in church doesn’t coincide with reality…..”Just have faith”…
When your holy book is staring back at you with a glaring falsehood…..”Just have faith”…


The phrase …..”Just have faith”…should send off a red light in your head. Every time they say…..”Just have faith”…they are inserting their personal programming in your brain to blind you from reality.


When they say…..”Just have faith”…they are saying “ignore your senses, discard your reasoning skills and believe us anyway”

To Wade,

You are right. Leaders in the church can misuse the "Just have faith" line to push their agenda or whatever. And when that red light goes off you need to consult the Lord through prayer about what you are hearing in the church. Any falsehoods that are being concealed by the "Just have faith" line will be exposed.

Dave Poole

To those believers who say 'you have to pray in Jesus' name' and 'you have to be in line with his will'. Right. What about a woman cornered by a rape/murderer, and her urgent pleading god for help goes unaswered? What about a kid who watches his dad slowly destroying his family and himself with the drink and prays the purest prayer ever 'god help Daddy?' and that goes unanswered? What about a family of Christians praying, cowering in a corner while the soldiers come through their village killing everyone they see? Their prayer for help remains unanswered. So it isn't god's will and it's just selfish to pray for your safety or the safety of someone you love more than your own heart? And yet we used to pray thanks to god for getting us a plumber to fix our pipes or for the vicar's computer not crashing while he sent out begging e-mails spamming various organisations? Bloody good, isn't it?
Load of old rubbish, or what?

Dave Poole:

I'll try to simplify:

You said, " I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you?"

I said, ..."I've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith. But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?"

In other words why can't you speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith... all the others do? You're no different.

Better?

Wade:

Right on!

A person who is willing to tell another person "you have no faith" is just trying to take the burden off of himself to provide a logical explanation. Accusing a person of having no faith is to tell him he is weak minded. It is to imply something is wrong with the questioner rather than something being wrong with the lack of answer.

Another guilt trip religions use for control. The truly weak minded jump on it, "Oh, no!! I HAVE to believe or I am a bad/wrong/damaged/weak."

LMFAO!!!


Quote: "Leaders in the church can misuse the 'Just have faith' line to push their agenda or whatever."


And here's the prescription, folks, for when the church leaders "push their agenda, or whatever" in the church.

"...you need to consult the Lord"


But wait a minute...?...?..what's the churches agenda? Consult the Lord.

Can you believe it? It's absolute LUNACY!!!!

To Heathen Sister,

I don't know the condition of other peoples hearts or minds. I don't know what they are thinking. And I try not to assume or judge. If others, Christian or otherwise, do then they are wrong. And if I ever came across as sounding that way then I apologize as that was not my intention.

Dave Poole

DP: Either it takes a lot of faith or it takes mustard seed faith. Which way is it? You've taken both positions. On the one hand you said it may take a lot of faith to have an answered prayer and on the other you imply that perhaps no one has achieved mustard seed faith, which is universally agreed to mean very little faith.

Whatever, the whole topic is asinine anyway.

Your shifting back and forth between maybe this and maybe that, or it could be this or that, reminds me of answers from a kid's magic 8 ball. You never can pin those things down to commit to any particular position on anything, and the answers seem to fit nearly any question.

As far as your interpretation of this or that verse, well, someday, if you're lucky, you'll realize that your private little interpretations don't mean much to anyone, except you. Rule of thumb for maintaining a strong Christian faith is to understand that the words in the Bible mean what they mean except when they don't mean what they mean.

Believe what you like, Davey, it's your life. And thanks for the entertainment.

To webmaster,

I don't see any "back and forth" but whatever. All of this is very clear to me. Perhaps I'm all wrong, perhaps it's you. Whatever.

Personally I think it is foolish and just rude to throw Bible verses out on the screen, give your interpretation of it or use it against others, and then say no one is interested in "your" interpretation. The ego on you....... unreal. You talk with such an undeserving sense of accomplishment and prestige. You know as little about the universe and the supernatural or the afterlife as anyone else here. You may know more history, theory, and mythology, but they are still just theory. NOTHING has been PROVEN, not Christianity or evolution or intelegent design, NOTHING. Yet you poo poo everyone else who does not agree with you.

You thanked me for the entertainment. Your welcome. Peace be to you.

Dave Poole

"I don't see any 'back and forth'
Perhaps I'm all wrong, perhaps it's you."

That comment is ironically hilarious. Thanks again for the laugh!

"I think it's rude of you to post...the ego on you....... unreal"

Ah, think about it genius, it's my website! It's my soapbox! Do you think authors of books are rude? Do you think newspaper reporters are rude?

Never-mind, you probably do think people with thought out opinions are rude, even when they own the communication medium, even when they allow others to barge in and insult them.

Seriously, do you really think it's rude for a person to strut around in their own house? I guess pastors that preach in their own churches against everything non-Christian are being arrogantly rude!

What's really rude is to come into another person's home and shit on the carpet. This site is for encouraging ex-Christians, which you are obviously NOT. I suppose if I came uninvited into your Sunday School class and argued with you all day, then you'd be the rude one and I'd be the poor victim of verbal abuse.

Think about it, you don't pay for this server space, you don't pay for the bandwidth, you've devoted no time toward maintaining the site, you're just a guest, a guest with an attitude—a self-righteous, pompous, superior attitude.

My ego is large? Undoubtedly it is. You'd have to have an ego to run a site like this for 5 years and faithfully answer the same idiotic, parroting comments from literally hundreds and thousands of mind-numbed, religious automatons. However, when it comes to ego, I recommend you take a hard look in a mirror, that is, if you can find one large enough to accomodate your entire head.

Face it Davey boy, your thinking abilities have been crippled by your religion. I'm sure you'd be nice guy, if you could ever be delivered from the Borg.

Pax

Oh, and another thing, the burden of PROOF, is on you!

You claim there is a god, right? Where is the evidence? You claim there is an afterlife. PLEASE, show me the beef!

It is up to the one making fantastic claims to bring evidence to the table that supports the claims.

"It's all just theory," you say, which I take by that you mean your beliefs in the supernatural are just as valid as my doubts about the supernatural.

With that kind of crippled logic, I can claim that Bigfoot and I have an occasional light lunch with aliens on their UFO every third Wednesday. Then, instead of bringing any evidence to document my excursions, I smugly demand that you PROVE that what I say is not true.

People claiming knowledge of a god; a flying, un-dead, crucified man-god; and future life in eternal beautification or everlasting putrefaction, depending on which god is worshiped or not worshiped, need to present significant evidence supporting such bizarre claims.

Until then, your claims are equal in value to my reported tea-times with Sasquatch.

Again, PAX.

Last comment.

Since you're such a believer in the power of prayer, I invite and challenge you to use that powerful faith of yours to pray this site off the Internet. That shouldn't be too hard for your faith, or your god.


Waiting...

















Waiting...


















hmm...

To webmaster,

Do you ever get tired of your own voice? I suspect not. This is your house but you left the doors open and the shades on the windows up. You let anyone come in and hang around. You have left yourself open for public scrutiny. If you don't want people in your house then shut the darn door, draw the blinds and then have your little party. Put a disclaimer stating your ideas and then state that all who do not agree with you, or whatever stipulations you want, may not enter. Then you can get on your soapboax, spread your message, and everyone can tell you how smart you are and smooch your rear end. Until you close the door all sorts of unwanted people will wander in.

I have already had this "Burden of Proof" talk with you. IF you want to have it again you can revisit the prior posts from the middle of March. OK? I do not see a need to have it again.
Talk about parroting the same stuff over and over.

"Your are so right webmaster" "Oh yes, and smart too" I just thought you might enjoy that. I have not seen anyone post a compliment to you in a while and thought you might be getting a little sore about it. Ahh, that feels better, doesn't it.

Dave Poole

Thank you Mr. Poole.

You're finally being honest and showing your True Christian face.

God that was easy.

To webmaster,

webmaster:Last comment.

Since you're such a believer in the power of prayer, I invite and challenge you to use that powerful faith of yours to pray this site off the Internet. That shouldn't be too hard for your faith, or your god.


Waiting...

















Waiting...


















hmm...

Didn't we already have this comment too. Nothing new to offer huh? When you can think of some new tripe, let me know. Good night.

Dave Poole

Ah yes, A TRUE CHRISTIAN™.

Too easy...

To webmaster,

The definition of a Christian is not a door mat. I have said nothing wrong or out of line. No cussing or crass words, profanity or otherwise. I have not judged you or condemmed you. If my sarcasm offended or hurt your feelings then I apologize. And what is a true Christian face? Post it so we can all see and learn from your vast knoledge and pesimistic attitude. For the record I do hope you come around to the Lord again. Let me know when you do. I am still honoring your first prayer request to me. dpoole@ebmail.gdeb.com

Dave Poole

David Poole

I do not think the Webmaster created this website for his glorification as you ignorantly suggested.

David you're so afraid that you will eventually find out that your phoney god and religious beliefs are false and you've made a public commitment (ass) out of yourself, in your commuinity, just like all other Christians.

Now you have no false god or jesus to validate and glorify you, and you have nothing but your phoney Christian friends and phoney preacher, thats all you have and as long as you support their silly beliefs you'll be approved, but if you should ever stand up and tell them it's all a lie, they will turn against you and you know it.

It's called conditional love, as long as you play along with their silly make-believe mind games, you're in, but the moment you stand up for truth, their god and jesus no longer loves you and they will not either, we've all been there and done that.

Grow David, give up the playpen jesus loves you myth, that your momma promised it was true.

Her parents told her the same bullshit when she was a little girl too.

The bible is all lies and bullshit.

So at the conclusion of the sophomoric flame war, we see that Mr. Poole has no evidence to offer for his fantastic beliefs, his prayers of faith are ineffectual toward bringing down this site, his righteous indignation and anger is morally superior to my goading, irritated, annoyance, and most importantly, Mr. Poole is completely justified.

According to the polls, a good time was had by all!

Thanks for fun, kid.

My point in asking you to pray that God kills me or converts me was to demonstrate to you that neither is going to happen.

I know that for the superstitous, it's a scary thing to "tempt the Lawd," but I'm no more afraid of Yaweh than I am of Baal, Ra, Allah, or Old King Cole. The reason I'm not afraid of any of these characters, is that none of them are real.

I have to admit, however, that I do get a good chill from Stephen King novels.

DP:

You said, "...I try not to assume or judge...And if I ever came across as sounding that way then I apologize as that was not my intention."

Of course it was your intention. Otherwise what the hell are you doing on this web site arguing with us and trying to convince us we're wrong?

Also, you said "Is reachating [sic]the ear any less miraculous than it growing back? I don't think so."

Actually re-growing an ear would be way more miraculous since human body parts don't regenerate like a starfish (except for lungs and livers). Doctors re-attach appendages all the time with amazing success.

Webmaster:

I'll stroke your ego--you rock!!

...and I sure as shit won't be praying for you for any reason. (I was gonna say 'sure as hell', but then that would mean I would be praying.)

It's always SO satisfying to see the thin veneer of, or should I say, the thin pavement of the "High Road" that these emotionally disturbed people like David, peeled back so quickly when someone looks at their "Lets pretend I am a true Christian" stance, and exposes it as nothing more than a desperate attempt to get attention.

If he really was a true Christian, he would be devoting all of the time spent here with us heathens, to helping some of the innocent people who are experiencing horrible pain and suffering, those mistakes that God made, and hasn't got around to rectifying, or is to busy to give comfort to.
Dan (Humanist, Rationalist, Can't be Bullshittedist )

David, you should live the life of a my hamster - running around on a wheel, breeding like a rabbit and then eventually croke in 3yrs...Marvelous!

In other words, what are you still doing here!!!

"Your point?"

The point is that this is an EX-Christian website and most people here don't have a belief in God, namely, the X-ian God, his son, and/or their ghost.

But hey, here's one more point to either consider, or conveniently ignore:

Anyone ever notice how X-ians define their ellusive god in terms of what he is NOT, and what he does NOT do?(the negative)

David Poole: "I don't(do *NOT) believe He(God) wants that."

Arbitrary X-ian 1: "It is *NOT God's will to do that."

Arbitrary X-ian 2: "You do *NOT have the right interpretation, that why it does *NOT happen your way."

Arbitrary X-ian 3: "God does *NOT work like that."

Arbitrary X-ian 4: "It's *NOT that God doesn't answer prayers---it's that YOU do *NOT have enough Faith."


"NOT", "NOT", "NOT", "NOT", "NOT".....X infinity.

Either provide sufficient POSITIVE objective evidence for your God(s)...or SCRAM!

To boomslang,

Some people might be confused by your post. I believe you were responding to the post I left earlier around 4:00 pm. That post has been removed by the webmaster ( I can only assume). I guess he got rubbed the wrong way a bit. He told me once that he was more tolorant of other peoples opinions than I was. I guess this proves otherwise. Enjoy the bits and half-truths he spoon feeds you. When half of the information is censored how can you really know what is going on. Be careful of this guy. He behaves like the worst kind of bully. He pushes and provokes until someone stands up to him and then he runs home to mamma. In my opinion, a true coward. OUT!

Dave Poole

I'm not concerned about confusing anyone, Mr. Poole........as your other posts say it all....::wink::

David,

If your post was scrubbed, it would have said something like: "Removed by author"

Then again, why would the WM allow you to continue posting even right after the one you claimed was "removed?" If it was something really tasteless, I think he'll leave it there for all to see. WM ain't scured!

See, animals do have a purpose to survive and continue, barring from being extinct. We, humans have an advantage - time.

Instead you David spend much of it on stupid shit like superstitions. If your life span ranged from 3-5 years, where would the gods be?

Take my advise, in your next life, try to become a hamster...no worries about gods and devils eh...You will have 3 yrs to have as much sex and babies as you possible can, then, poof! It will all be over.

To south2003,

Hamster, right, got it the first time. Thanks

Dave Poole

One last chance before you go, Mr Poole:

Can you please provide us with POSITIVE *objective* evidence for Gods' existance---minus any excuses, straw men, ad hominem, or diversions. If so, I will SURELY follow His plan, even IF I don't like it.

Waiting.

First, David tells the fundies not to come back to this site (they still do) and now he's telling ex-Christians "Be careful of this guy"…heehehe

In other words, David is actually saying (putting words into David’s mouth), “be careful of this guy, the one who offends me by throwing back to my face my own theological dung knowing I can’t defend it. It’s dreadful to not have control over my own life (I gave up control to my sky daddy), to point where with ever part of my being burns, *wishing* to control others? It's been quiet easy for me to get through to a few weak minded, really it has - BUT some how I just cannot penetrate here. They just won’t buy *it* (the bullshit) and that freaks me out!”

David, Think "hamster"

To boomslang,

No evidence exists that would satisfy you. Not according to you criteria. We would love to have you anyway, however.

To south2003,

I think it is the ex-christians who are trying to sell their wares. "It's all bullshit", "God doesn't exist", "It's all in your head", "You imagined it". Show me where I ever attacked your beliefs. You guys have the adgenda, not me.

"It's been quiet easy for me to get through to a few weak minded, really it has - BUT some how I just cannot penetrate here. They just won’t buy *it* (the bullshit) and that freaks me out!”" Wow, what a statement. Basically your saying that all Christians are weak-minded fools and all of the exchristians who frequent this site are scholastic savants who are above all this "hocus pocus" Christian nonsense. Brilliant scholars who will not be fooled by the religious right. You're so concerned with and invested in Christianity being wrong that you wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face. No matter what it was. If a Christian delives it, it must be wrong. Wow.

South2003 said: Then again, why would the WM allow you to continue posting even right after the one you claimed was "removed?" If it was something really tasteless, I think he'll leave it there for all to see. WM ain't scured!

I spoke against the all-knowing webmaster. BIG NO NO. So it was removed.

This is just stupid. I gave into petty name calling and arguing. Enjoy your party. I still think you should keep the door closed.

Dave Poole

In regards to giving David Poole one last chance to provide objective evidence for his biblegod:

David Poole: "No evidence exists that would satisfy you."



What would "satisfy" me is anything EXCEPTING something that would require me to have "faith". Having "faith" is essentially nothing more than Agnosticism. Why?...because you do not, and CANNOT, "know" that something exists without empirical and/or scientific evidence. If you had the evidence, you would not need the "faith".

Hence, the reason David Poole doesn't have the evidence isn't because of my "criteria", or "us", or "Ex-Christians", or "Webmasters", or "Devils"......it's because there IS NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE TO GIVE.

As I said, provide the evidence and I will follow, even if I DON'T like the plan.

Waiting.(still)

A belief can no longer appear to be real, once it is questioned.

I would venture to say that good Ole Saint Davey chose the Bible religion to believe, because it was the first one introduced to him by his mother or father. I would almost be willing to say that Davey never studied or delved into any other religion(s), because he was exposed to christianity and it met his criteria in order to fit into his surrounding environment.

Christianity is a safe religion to belong to, because most people fit into the Status Quo.

Where as Atheistism is looked down upon as rebellion against god and the silly bible mind cult beliefs.

To proclaim Atheistism can be risky, it goes against the Status Quo, I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.

A banner of bigotry and deceit.

To Ben,

WHAT?! First of all. My mother was raised catholic and never brought us (the kids) to church at all. My father studied Daoism, he did the buddist thing for a while, and some other self-realization something or other that I am not really familiar with. They both however taught us to find our own way. I did. Not because it was exposed to me, but because Christianity was real to me. I can not say that for the other religions I have studied/researched.

Now, let's look at the second part of your post. Ben said:

Christianity is a safe religion to belong to, because most people fit into the Status Quo.

Where as Atheistism is looked down upon as rebellion against god and the silly bible mind cult beliefs.

To proclaim Atheistism can be risky, it goes against the Status Quo, I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.

False statement 1. Christianity is a safe religion. This is true in churches, maybe. There is a war going on against Christians in this country. If you tell people that you believe in buddah or gaia, mother earth or crystals or ganisha they are much more excepting of it then if you say you are a Christian. They are excepting of it because these religions do not demand a lot of you. Mind your own, find your chakra, live and let live. People are comfortable with this. Christianity, being CHRIST-like demands more from you. It requires change, not complacance. That is why people are affraid of it.

False statement 2. Atheism is looked down upon. It is not hard to say that you are atheist. Where are you excluded from or how are you discriminated against. Do Christians exclude you? You don't want to be around those people anyway. This whole country these days is about breaking convention, being different, breaking the mold. Seems like atheism is great way to do that. If you're not fitting in somewhere it probably isn't becasue you are an atheist, it may have something to do with that "bubbly" disposition.

Dumbfounding statement 1.
I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.

This is the most rediculous statement I have heard. I have read most of your posts. You call Christians stupid, mock their beliefs, call Christianity a cult, say their Lord does not exist. And then you have the gall to get offended when they say something back. Give me a break.

DP,

Every year 15 MILLION children die of hunger.

For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years.

Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days!

The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.

In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"

One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture

The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. Hunger in Global Economy

Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. UNICEF

3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.

In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.

In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.

The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.

One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.

Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.

In 1997 alone, the lives of at least 300,000 young children were saved by vitamin A supplementation programmes in developing countries.

Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death

About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age

To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.

The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.

Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger

It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.

*List provided by Thinkquest.org

AND YOU THINK GOD IS GOING TO ANSWER YOUR PRAYERS????

Think again.

I guess these kids did not have enough faith, or maybe they were just praying to the wrong god. I bet you will claim this like all typical christians..."god took them out of this ugly old world to save them."

Yeah, sure. What a loving miracle.

Starve em' to death, THEN save em'.

You are clueless.

Oh, and god is too invisible!
(According to the buybull)

To Melissa,

Quite a list there. And I do not want to make light of the issues you mentioned but are all those people praying to God? You seem to have lumped all those issues under the "PRAYERS GOD DIDN"T ANSWER" category. Most of those country's and territories you mentioned are not Christian based countrys's. Like a lot of people mention on this site "If you weren't raised to believe in God you would probably worship other deity.

And what have you done do fix this issue. How long could some of those kids eat if you donated your internet access fees or didn't get your hair done as often? Something to think about. And how many of these country's have ruling parties that live in the lap of luxury? Don't blame God when perfectly cabable people, individuals and governments that have the means do nothing.

"I guess these kids did not have enough faith, or maybe they were just praying to the wrong god. I bet you will claim this like all typical christians..."god took them out of this ugly old world to save them."

Yeah, sure. What a loving miracle.

Starve em' to death, THEN save em'.

You are clueless."

I like how in this selection from your post how you think for me and then make a judgement about my mental state. It's been a real pleasure Missy

Dave Poole

Great Info Melissa! Now lets combine the total assets of the churches and preachers in America.

I would be willing to guess that if the IRS were to be allowed to investigate the amount of assets in just the American churches, we could immmediately pay off the governmental dept of 8 trillion dollars, or feed the entire population of the world or provide free health care for every impoverished child in the world.

Some of the richest people in the world are preachers, but the IRS is not allowed to inspect their files, they are completely exempt.

Some of the richest preachers in the world are estimated to be worth:

Most popular:
Benny Hinn - worth over 10 billion, he makes 100 million/yr.
Billy Graham - over 2 billion
Jack Van Impe - 80 million
Jerry Falwell - 5 billion
Jim Baker - 20 million
Joyce Myers - 40 million
Joel Osteeen - 50 million
Kenneth Copeland - 1 billion
Pat Robertson - 5 billion
Robert Schuler - 10 billion
there's more and more

Just pick one. It is estimated that there are over 425,000 preachers in US and Canada.

This does not in no way include Europe, South America, Australia, or the Vatican.

What happened to store up your treasures in Heaven? Oh I forgot Jesus said that, which means absolutely nothing.

....::yawn::....



Evidence?



Waiting(still)

David said:
"This is the most ridiculous statement I have heard. I have read most of your posts. You call Christians stupid, mock their beliefs, call Christianity a cult, say their Lord does not exist. And then you have the gall to get offended when they say something back. Give me a break"

David, stupid is as stupid does. If you design your life around trying to defend a belief in a mythology, and devote all of your time to trying to get normal people to suspend all rational thought and believe in your mythology, and join your cult, or in our case rejoin your cult, you are stupid.

Especially on a website dedicated to folks who have seen your "I have my fingers in my ears and can't hear you" act, from every Christian apologist who ever stumbled upon this site, and every self proclaimed preacher of the gospel, and every bible college student, and every young "born again", who is to dumb to be able to construct a complete sentence, you come across as suspiciously, someone just PLAYING A GAME!

I will say, that you are not stupid, you are worse, you are dishonest, because you are in the same class as the televangelist who steals from simple people who are desperate to believe in something magical.

The Benny Hinns', and Jerry Falwells, and all the other Christian charlatans are the worst kinds of crooks, because they don't believe a word of the crap they preach, they just want to be rich. You just want attention.

You know your argument can't be defended with logic, so you just keep reasserting it over and over, trying to wear down your opponent.

You are a lonely person, because you don't belong in a church of believers, and you don't belong here. I have more respect for the naive young semi-illiterates who are full of the spirit and are just young and dumb than I do for someone who knows what they are saying is crap, but keep on saying it because they have some other weird agenda.
Dan (Member of an elite club, who have seen you here many times before)

David: blah blah blah yada yada yada yada

Where are your *truths*? Unless you think there are devils, demons and goblins, virgin births with holy conceptions, a dead man walking, that snakes and donkeys do talk, the earth is flat and pigeon blood cure boils and leprosy, all of it “hocus pocus” There is nothing scholarly about believing in such nonsense, especially practicing rituals, talking to yourself and symbolically drinking of the blood and eating the flesh of a dead man. What a joke! You hold on to primitive beliefs and it seems you have a difficult time deciphering fiction from non-fiction. Can we move forward? *tsk* scholarly…lol.

David: blah blah blah and more yadas

As for your god beliefs, they are subjective. Until you show us objective evidences of your god or any gods, it is just pure imagination and pure bullshit…put those gods, your god, all of the bloody gods in a bottle (8,000+ gods) so we can test them.

David: blah blah blah (infinite blah blahs)

DP said:” I do not want to make light of the issues you mentioned but are all those people praying to God?"

Oh my lanta! Let me guess, YOUR particular god is the only True god to possibly answer them. That is as self-centered as it gets.

Regardless of their religious faith Dave, at least half of these deaths were most likely that of a Christian and could have been avoided if only they had more faith or prayed a little harder for HELP. Is that right?

Send the damn Calvary already.

The point is this DP: The two lists’ provided to you further proves that religious faith and prayer is pointless, especially when it comes to solving the problems of our world. Those who rely on prayer to fix things or ask for divine help...are S.O.L. and up a religious creek w/o a paddle.

At least I can admit that their death could have been prevented by the hands of our religiously stupefied mankind. You are not even willing to have your illusive god share in that responsibility by examining your own beliefs that divine will has denied them help, for whatever irrelevant reason.

No, instead you are dismissing it as merely being chance or probability of having the wrong faith, or not enough of it.

Your religion says children deserve death and starvation because they were born into a sinful world where god does not intervene for good causes; his end promise to this world is destruction and his only cause is himself. Where is the message of hope in that DP?

I know what you will say…living forever and ever in a cosmic palace of light.

Does anyone deserve to be starved to death because they don't know how to pray properly or because they have the wrong god? If you think so, then your justice is as sadistic as the bible gods…that is if you believe you were made in his image. Your god does claim to be the inventor of evil. What does that make you and all of his followers?

You are taught to place ALL your trust in your unproven ghostly father figure, but that is where you and all the other faith filled religious frauds continue to misguide this world into oblivion.

Call it displaced hope if you will, but please try to envision what this world would be like if they started putting all that spiritual effort and love that goes into maintaining their shallow beliefs, instead focused on working towards prosperity and peace for all.

Mankind is not perfect, but we sure do try our best to survive in a world that has constantly struggled for the last 2,000 + years to end the wars and strife caused mostly by religious hate and intolerance. They have been dividing and conquering on faith alone for long enough. It is time to believe in our hopes and dreams. It is time to change our "spiritual" ways.

We must get up off our knees and stop begging for supernatural help or waiting for death to save us. Humanity is capable of helping ourselves by using our minds, hands, feet, talents, along with our compassion and love to bring solutions into our world.

The majority are misguided by religious faith to throw their arms around some invisible notion of salvation, all in the name of a selfish need for attaining everlasting life. This world and its people have no value to the religious faithful, as this life is nothing but a stepping stone to them.

Your alleged god claims he must ignore these wrongs as he continually conspires to make evil by consulting his eternal plans to assure that they comply with his own desires, with no consideration of our state of living or our personal state of being. Inaction from a superior being with superior powers capable of correcting these wrongs yet, watches over human suffering like a peeping Tom only makes him an accomplice to all those evils.

It is the absence of love, peace, and justice in these deplorable acts that reveals the christian god, the muslim god, and every other god to be nothing but a mental quagmire of superstition and fear. It exposes religion as the greatest lie ever sold to man because we only need to look over our shoulder to see the ravages of those who sought to prove their
loyalty and faith to the ruler of their afterlife world by killing
people in OUR world. This
spiritual warfare is only taking place within their mind and mankind has been their religious whipping post for far too long.

I live rather simple and I am willing to work for great change, but most religious people wash their hands of this world. They are too paranoid and obsessed with where they may go after their death to worry about this beautiful yet "hellish" place. They are convinced this life is not worthy, by their faith alone.

I am asking for nothing more than examining the natural state of truth in order to find our way to serenity and sanity, that of securing the common good and dignity of the human race.

I declare: We are worthy enough to live in peace. We are still alive.

Who truly gives so selflessly to this cause…not the bible god!
He selfishly made it all for himself for his own twisted cause:

I form light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If you make a world to be combative by design to justify the outcome of eternity then that would be creating just to test our limits of withstanding abuse in a game of punishments and rewards.

Life was meant to be enjoyed, but not at the expense of others. Love is OUR human emotion. To honor life, we love one another. What most people lack is a respect for this life and our world.

That is why HUMAN logic and reason are so desperately needed to finally conquer these paranoid fears that are caused by living in a paranoid world that is misguided by ancient religious myths.

Ponder this; If you were sitting on a mountain watching death roll in to consume the hungry eyes of starving innocent children while you had the super power to feed them all they could ever want and more, yet you sit there silently holding your loving hands still…you my friend would be just as guilty as those who are robbing them of nutrition by stealing their fruitful fields to give food to only the elite and holy.

If you consider your god to be superior to our ways and capable of all things, yet excuse his inaction to help the helpless…you are stuck in a constant state of contradictions. No tolerance and no compromise...religious faith
is recreating those same impossible conditions on this Earth. It is not good or loving.

If I see injustice…I am compelled to act in any way I can. I will not stand by and watch someone raped or murdered, even if it meant my own demise. I, a limited person with limited capabilities am more committed to this world and its people than any mythical god.

The validity of all religious claims that a lOVING
"supernatural" father is at work in this world through prayer and faith is revealed to be a grand lie every time a child is raped, beaten, starved, and murdered. They are innocent and have no agenda but to live. Yet, according to your faith and the bible, god sent them here knowing they would die in agony and dispair.

In fact, these examples only provides additional support to the natural world views held by most secular humanists which declares that gods are myths invented by ignorant primitive thoughts, and it makes no sense to attribute our life to these needless threats and empty promises.

In my own emotional comforts of love for life, I too hold that shades of gray are better than black or white. I don’t KNOW the truest facts of all life’s greatest answers, but neither does anyone else. I don't know if tomorrow will come.

One thing I am particularly confident in is that the hyper faith filled religious zealots who spread ignorance and fear to further their faith are not in possession of any ultimate truth.

The only difference is that I, and many like myself who hold a natural view, are willing to honestly admit it out loud.
I do not deserve eternal torture as punishment for my disbelief. I am a "spirited" person as well as an atheist...and in the space between I found hope and happiness.

Everyday I work to better our world in some way and I do not pray for divine help, yet I seem to be getting the job done, even if it is only in small measures.

BTW; my d/u access is 9.99 a month and it is matched 10 fold throughout the year to benefit causes of social Injustice. I get a haircut maybe 3 times a year, and my hair color is natural. My name is not Missy, it is Melissa. You can shorten it to Mel or M.

I do volunteer quite a lot of my personal time (time being more valuable than $$$ to me) to the needs of those that are less fortunate than myself.

DP, our family is in no way "well off" yet we work for humanitarian and evironmental causes almost daily throughout the year in hopes of changing our world to brighter days in the future for all of humanity.

That is my cause and ALL children are my inspiration because they deserve to grow up in a world that is filled with universal possibilities, not a world that is narrowly ruled by superstition and condemened to end in a horrific act of destruction according to a holy time bomb called god.

The forces of nature and change are the rulers of life, of which I have no control. The only assurance I get in this world is in knowing that I did not take this life for granted and that I loved and cared for others to the best of my ability, and was willing to share my time without condemning anyone to a life of eternal torture for failing to pray or pretending to share in my fantasy of some phantom ruler in the sky.

If it all fades away to nothing, I won't be mad about it because I expected nothing from it, in the end. Life will probably carry on in some other way...who knows. It may not serve US, but as nature predicts...everything changes.

Please, the pleasure you felt was the intentional hope of my message that our reality is asking for your attention and action. We need you more than your "god" does.

Honest inquiry is essential to observing the truths in life and may that be the element that enables us to improve the living conditions of our world and preserving the natural planet that supports our human race.

DP, if you read this post with objectivity and an open mind yet remained unchanged by these words, then yes…you are still clueless. But I do commend you for reading it at length.

What are U doing besides praying for answers?

To Mellisa,

"Regardless of their religious faith Dave, at least half of these deaths were most likely that of a Christian and could have been avoided if only they had more faith or prayed a little harder for HELP. Is that right?"

It is my understanding that most of the worls hungry is in Africa and Asia. If you refer to the "WORLD RELIGIONS CHART" provided by the webmaster you will see that Christians are far outnumbered by non-christians in those respective areas. This is not the point. God's apparent absence from this situation is unsettling. I admit that I can neither explain it or understand it.

The point is that we live on a planet that can easily supply all of it's inhabitants with food and shelter. So why are there still people suffering? Look to the inhabitants of this planet, not God. He created enough for all.

"The validity of all religious claims that a lOVING
"supernatural" father is at work in this world through prayer and faith is revealed to be a grand lie every time a child is raped, beaten, starved, and murdered. They are innocent and have no agenda but to live. Yet, according to your faith and the bible, god sent them here knowing they would die in agony and dispair."

The world can be a crappy place, that we agree on. And like you said, when or if you saw injustice you would stop it. If everbody did that this world would be agreat place. But people DON'T do that. Because bad things happen to people and because people suffer is not proof that God does not exist. Does it apply the other way around? There are those who live very comfortable, happy lives. My your reasoning that would prove that God exists.

God gave us a perfectly working machine with a very simple operating manual. We as a people have not read the manual, tried to operate the machine outside of it perameters and complain because the machine doesn't work right. That is not God's fault.

"What are U doing besides praying for answers?"

Mellisa, you listed a lot of things you do to improve the quality of life here on Earth. In my routine I to volunteer at our local homeless shelter on Friday mornings, I volunteer with another church that builds and repairs roofs for low income and non-profit organizations in the area, and we support several other charities; some Christian based and some secular. God has called us to do these things. It's man's absence and comfort with these issues that is the real problem, not God's absence.

Dave Poole

Again, we see "God" being defined in terms of what "He" does NOT do, and where "He" is NOT. It's no coincidence, people.

Also again, we see God being totally presupposed, and of course, with zero evidence in the positive for "His" existance. Nothing new...::yaaay::

Melissa,
I have discovered what God is. God is a force that designed life on this planet with one major ultimatum to every species. SURVIVE AND REPRODUCE! God says to the termite:" Find a way to survive and reproduce yourself! To the "Bird flu virus:" Do whatever you have to do to survive and reproduce! To Man: "If you have to kill the termite and the bird flu virus for you to be able to survive and reproduce your self then by all means do it"

God also says to us: "Never mind that millions and ultimately billions of life forms will perish, and return to the earth. Your job is to survive and to reproduce yourself, and if you can't do that, I WILL FIND A SPECIES THAT WILL"

Helping David to grow out of Mysticism into logical rational, humanism, may very well be doing what God is telling us to do, because if we don't change the Islamic and Christian nuts, and all of the other religious fools who are willing to destroy our civilization over which one has the best religious book, and the best description of God, we will become extinct pretty soon.

We cannot find solutions to overpopulation and Global warming through prayer, and we cannot trust that a God is going to intervene. If we as the most intelligent species on earth cant solve these problems, there is another species waiting in the wings that will.

What is going to happen in this century is that there is going to be a huge "Die Back" of the human population because a finite planet cannot support an infinite number of humans, but it will be of no more consequence to God than when the dinosaurs died out because the couldn't find enough to eat.

Life will continue to find a way to propagate, even when the big rock comes hurtling through space and eliminates all living species, because time is of no consequence to God, and there is most certainly life on one of the billion or so other planets out there with the same physical characteristics of earth.
Dan (Earthling, Rationalist, Humanist)