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encouraging ex-Christians
News of interest to former Christians
Prayer doesn't affect heart patients
NEW YORK -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers did not ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who did not take part in the study, said the results did not surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said.
Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."
link
NEW YORK -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers did not ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who did not take part in the study, said the results did not surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said.
Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."
link
So the psychological effect of prayer in this case was NEGATIVE....I find that hilarious!!
Thanks alot, god!!! Good lookin out for your creation!
What good would faith be if there was concrete proof?
God has to make it look like it doesn't work, in order to seperate the faith of the sheep from the unbelieving goats.
That way when the good shepherd comes to gather his flock he's only going to find the most easily led and pliable sheep who've got the softest wool and the juiciest flesh. He doesn't want to have to put up with jumpy goats who are harder to control and have got stringier meat.
Mmmm. Lamb.
Maybe we should think a little more about the idea of living forever. There is a good chance that our creator is a tad smarter than us.
Dan (Homo sapiens, Rationalist)
Prayer groups themselves that I attended years ago discussed why their prayers never got answered. I used to hear such comments as, ‘You need to ask in Jesus name’, It’s not God’s timing’, ‘It’s not God’s will at this point of time’, ‘God is trying to show you something’, ‘God wants you to suffer to strengthen you’, ‘We must have a sinner in the camp’. They make these contradictory comments even though the mythological Jesus supposedly said in Mark 11:23-24. that they will.
If an all knowing omnipotent Creator exists or even if it doesn't, then prayer becomes a time waster.
These people are comical. That's all I can say. It's not that it was an incredibly complicated experiment involving genetics and atoms. Geezz!
I just wrote something on my blog closely related to that. If anyone cares to read it go here: http://exfundamentalist.blogspot.com/
Lorena
major studies in 2 years that proves prayer is only for the one doing the praying.This is the first to state that it actually does harm,..I totally agree!
So, there is no cause and effect according to this professor regarding prayer. Great, then of course, that means, prayer, is useless, as no cause can be attributed, either from a scientific or theological view.
No one will ever know, is this approach, however, I am sure this professor sees the "I don't know", as much more favorable than the actual results of the study, which show a negative for relying on prayer as a potential variable in recovery.
Like they are interupting their busy God and putting in a special request on your behalf by having an honorable or personal relationship with their God that they have earned, by having a belief in the first place.
Prayer is just a cheap and superficial way of pretending to care and/or help someone.(by the way he is an atheist,...chalk one up for good old humanism!)
Thus, it only change the praying person.
emptylogic
Simply amazing, having the capability to speak on behalf of an illiterate god, it does appear now, that there is only one true language, yours of course. So, are all your prayers answered? No. Then it appears you speak the wrong language.
(as did those around them)to self-help the conditions.You see this in x-tian prayer lines where 300 lb
people recieve weekly healings for back and feet problems.
Sir im ashamed of many of those whove claimed Christianity and really lived in almost a cult. i must say that first. i grew up in a "christian household" and was taught all the history and stories etc. i find you very insightful but must add that i am a strong believer. now, more detail on my specific beliefs another time(because most of them differ from the large generalized "christian" beliefs). Your argument against prayer is one that beats most in this context, but the problem is the context. Prayer is answered....if peoples prayers are truly what God is looking for. Most prayers these days are nothing but speeches given stating the obvious. "heal this, help that, do this for me, do that for them" Someone once told me, "true prayers are the deepest groans of the heart" These days, most ppl in western societies are not truly in touch with the deepest groans of their heart and even if the were, then what the really feel might seem "unacceptable" or "ridiculous". Anyway, to get to the main point here, prayer to God (if one speaks of the God represented by the Bible) is absolutley necessary. We are seperated from God and therefore ONLY communicate through prayer. please respond for the sake of a peaceful debate or discussion. thanks for caring enough about this topic to add in your convictions.
www.psalters.com
www.jesusradicals.com
www.thesimpleway.org
Dave Poole
If faith is all you have, then you have no way of ever knowing whether a miracle was or was not attributed to prayer. Bottom line, prayer, is useless. If god already knows "all", then prayer isn't going to sway gods' actions in our lives, therefore, prayer is only for the one who prays, period. If god doesn't already know "all", then obviously your god, isn't much of a god.
Prayer is nothing but an early ritual, used to reinforce ones belief, and thus keep their "faith" strong. Of course, the "faith" that is being strengthened is the "faith" in the people that gave them the ritualistic prayer, not in something in heaven, etc. When I see someone praying, I see also, someone who is claiming to be a loyal part of a group, through ritual. I don't play the ritual game, in order to be part of the in-crowd. So, many different ways, to show ones' loyalty to a cause, such is how the early church grew up, using symbols, to determine friend from foe.
Anyone want to join me in talking to the wall?
Ever?
If not, why not?
I have not read of a case where a limb was regenerated in recent history. I have read the accounts from the gospels about the ear that Jesus regenerated on the soldier but that is all. And let’s not get into the legitimacy of those accounts because I am not offering those up as evidence to my claim. And what does regenerated limbs have to do with the affects of prayer on heart patients. I thought that was what we were talking about.
Dave Poole
Remember "He/she/they/you weren't a real xian"?
Well, now it looks the argument is "They weren't really prayers."
Apparently they have to be the "right" prayers and prayed the "right" way to be answered.
Answered prayers are just coincidence and unanswered prayers are typical, and a waste of time.
Prayers for those who want to pretend they are making a contibution without really doing anything.
Dave Poole here. I left the most recent Christian comments you were talking about and you missed my point completely. I never said that people were praying wrong or that they were not praying the right way. If I told you that I was praying for you to (insert prayer request here) and you were opposed to it you would make darn sure it didn’t happen, either consciously or un-consciously. If you don’t have the faith it won’t happen. Faith = answered prayers, No Faith = unanswered prayers.
If those people being studied had no interest in being healed by God then they would not be healed. God does not push Himself on anybody.
Dave Poole
Thanks for clearing that up.
The story says Jesus reattached the ear — it didn't magically grow back.
Anyway, my point with the regenerated limbs question is this: Don't you think that someone, somewhere, in all of history, must have had a mustard seed of true faith, enough to receive this particular kind of healing?
Another thing, supposedly, some people have been magically raised from the dead, right? So did those dead people have a enough faith? Can you have faith when you're dead?
The fact is, there is not one story about anyone being healed that doesn't fit the description of a perhaps unexpected, but otherwise natural healing.
No one ever grows back a severed limb, because it's impossible. No one is raised from the dead if they are decapitated or their bodies are mangled. And, if you do a little research into the healing ministries of all the modern Christian healers, you'll discover that nearly all the details about the "victims" of these healings are surrounded with secrecy. In all cases the reports are suspect, and more often than not, clearly phony. People get wound up to believe for a healing, feel better for a short time after the circus, and then within a short time fall right back into whatever malady they were suffering. As you implied, the human mind is very powerful. Then, once the people backslide into sickness, they are frequently condemned and criticized by other believers for not having enough faith to maintain their healing.
The Charismatic, Word Faith, and hardcore Pentecostal versions of Christianity are horribly cruel because when prayers aren't answered, too often it's blamed on the person with the need: "There's sin in your life, or you don't have enough faith." The "you just don't have enough faith" attitude is sickening (pun intended).
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do...If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."—John 14:13,14
Long history has shown that this promise is a mushy religious platitude and nothing more. Prayer may be a nice sentiment, it may bring a moment of comfort people, but if you want to be healed, your best bet is to go to the best doctor available.
Your welcome. And thank YOU for the endless material.
"The story says Jesus reattached the ear — it didn't magically grow back."
Is reachating the ear any less miraculous than it growing back? I don't think so.
And I do agree with you about the Charasmatic and extreme fundies are way out of line when they point fingers at those who are are struggling and blame it on sin or lack of faith. I have seen a lot more of that than I am comfortable with and it is wrong. I have left many churches where this was running rampant.
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do...If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."—John 14:13,14
Personally I believe that asking in His name is meant as asking in his will. I do not feel that praying for things that contradict His teachings is "asking for something in His name".
Dave Poole
What I understand you are saying is if you have faith your prayers will be answered.
Gee.....I guess the pope just didn't have any faith cuz millions prayed for him and he died anyway.....or maybe he didn't have enough faith or the "right" faith, maybe.
I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you? Generally individuals with parkinsons that are as old as he was do die. Living forever or being imortal is probably outside of God's will, and I didn't see modern science doing anything to prevent his death either.
If he had more faith would he have died? Who knows? If those praying for him had more faith would he have died. Who knows? I feel that the scriptures are true. If you have faith and believe you prayers will be answered. Some prayers require a lot of faith. It is not easy to believe that God will save a life cure a disease when we see people die everyday from disease and accidents. It is hard to believe the unusal. It is easier to believe that God can heal an invisable disease like cancer than it is to believe He will re-grow a limb. If you pray for that most people will have that skeptisim and doubt, even as they pray. That is a lack of faith. I know I have the same skeptisism. And it makes me uneasy to say that. I still believe He exists and that He loves me.
Bottom line: I have no idea or good answer for why we do not see more "miracles" from the Lord that are concrete and indisputable. I am not saying He does not exist and does not move amoung His people; I just don't know why He moves the way He does.
Dave Poole
"Living forever or being imortal is probably outside of God's will.."
Isn't everything "gawd's will" to a xian? So, why pray? Gawd's gonna do his will regardless.
Prayer is waste of time and energy.
Shit just happens. And I certainly have more peace knowing that than I did when I actually believed in the illusive "gawd" and wondered why he was such an ass hole.
" I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you? "
I've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith, But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?
All magical healings are conveniently of invisible ailments because they are psychosomatic, faked, or naturally explainable. Besides, what’s the point of magical healings from Gawd anyway? Everyone dies, and barring accidents, they die of some ailment, some sickness. Every single person ever born eventually gets sick…and then dies – that’s reality.
Another thing I love is the way Christians will go to any length to re-explain what various verses in the Bible mean when the promises don’t quite match up with reality.
Jesus promised to answer prayers. People pray for healing and are NOT healed. Simple.
“Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.”– James 5:14,15
Whose faith? The victim’s or the elder’s?
Now we’ll get a lesson on exactly what a true “Prayer of Faith™” might be.
I did not understand your last question. It reaI've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith, But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?
So why not me what? Pleas elaborate.
Dave Poole
"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you..."—Jebus
I know — that's not literal.
You know how I know it's not literal, because no one can do it, that's why.
So, I guess when Jesus promised that when two or three agree on anything on Earth and it would be done for them, that wasn't literal either. I guess when Jesus said ask anything in my name and I will do it, that wasn't literal either.
I've got it now. If something doesn't match up with common sense or reality, then it's just Jebus is only speaking metaphorically, for some mystical reason.
Poole — it's all nonsense. Wake up.
"if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you..."—Jebus
I know — that's not literal"
Who says this is not literal? Perhaps no one has obtained that level of faith as of yet. Is that possible? What do you think?
"So, I guess when Jesus promised that when two or three agree on anything on Earth and it would be done for them, that wasn't literal either. I guess when Jesus said ask anything in my name and I will do it, that wasn't literal either."
If you read my post above you would know my interpretation of 'ask anything in MY NAME'. Read it again and if you don't get it ask some direct questions about it and I will do my best to answer them.
Dave Poole
Whenever something doesn’t make sense…..”Just have faith”…
When what you are taught in church doesn’t coincide with reality…..”Just have faith”…
When your holy book is staring back at you with a glaring falsehood…..”Just have faith”…
The phrase …..”Just have faith”…should send off a red light in your head. Every time they say…..”Just have faith”…they are inserting their personal programming in your brain to blind you from reality.
When they say…..”Just have faith”…they are saying “ignore your senses, discard your reasoning skills and believe us anyway”
You are right. Leaders in the church can misuse the "Just have faith" line to push their agenda or whatever. And when that red light goes off you need to consult the Lord through prayer about what you are hearing in the church. Any falsehoods that are being concealed by the "Just have faith" line will be exposed.
Dave Poole
Load of old rubbish, or what?
I'll try to simplify:
You said, " I can't speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith. Can you?"
I said, ..."I've never tried to speak to the condition of another's heart or faith. But the fundies who come to this site certainly have no trouble judging the heart and goodness of the x-xians, so why not you?"
In other words why can't you speak to the condition of the man's heart or faith... all the others do? You're no different.
Better?
Wade:
Right on!
A person who is willing to tell another person "you have no faith" is just trying to take the burden off of himself to provide a logical explanation. Accusing a person of having no faith is to tell him he is weak minded. It is to imply something is wrong with the questioner rather than something being wrong with the lack of answer.
Another guilt trip religions use for control. The truly weak minded jump on it, "Oh, no!! I HAVE to believe or I am a bad/wrong/damaged/weak."
Quote: "Leaders in the church can misuse the 'Just have faith' line to push their agenda or whatever."
And here's the prescription, folks, for when the church leaders "push their agenda, or whatever" in the church.
"...you need to consult the Lord"
But wait a minute...?...?..what's the churches agenda? Consult the Lord.
Can you believe it? It's absolute LUNACY!!!!
I don't know the condition of other peoples hearts or minds. I don't know what they are thinking. And I try not to assume or judge. If others, Christian or otherwise, do then they are wrong. And if I ever came across as sounding that way then I apologize as that was not my intention.
Dave Poole
Whatever, the whole topic is asinine anyway.
Your shifting back and forth between maybe this and maybe that, or it could be this or that, reminds me of answers from a kid's magic 8 ball. You never can pin those things down to commit to any particular position on anything, and the answers seem to fit nearly any question.
As far as your interpretation of this or that verse, well, someday, if you're lucky, you'll realize that your private little interpretations don't mean much to anyone, except you. Rule of thumb for maintaining a strong Christian faith is to understand that the words in the Bible mean what they mean except when they don't mean what they mean.
Believe what you like, Davey, it's your life. And thanks for the entertainment.
I don't see any "back and forth" but whatever. All of this is very clear to me. Perhaps I'm all wrong, perhaps it's you. Whatever.
Personally I think it is foolish and just rude to throw Bible verses out on the screen, give your interpretation of it or use it against others, and then say no one is interested in "your" interpretation. The ego on you....... unreal. You talk with such an undeserving sense of accomplishment and prestige. You know as little about the universe and the supernatural or the afterlife as anyone else here. You may know more history, theory, and mythology, but they are still just theory. NOTHING has been PROVEN, not Christianity or evolution or intelegent design, NOTHING. Yet you poo poo everyone else who does not agree with you.
You thanked me for the entertainment. Your welcome. Peace be to you.
Dave Poole
Perhaps I'm all wrong, perhaps it's you."
That comment is ironically hilarious. Thanks again for the laugh!
"I think it's rude of you to post...the ego on you....... unreal"
Ah, think about it genius, it's my website! It's my soapbox! Do you think authors of books are rude? Do you think newspaper reporters are rude?
Never-mind, you probably do think people with thought out opinions are rude, even when they own the communication medium, even when they allow others to barge in and insult them.
Seriously, do you really think it's rude for a person to strut around in their own house? I guess pastors that preach in their own churches against everything non-Christian are being arrogantly rude!
What's really rude is to come into another person's home and shit on the carpet. This site is for encouraging ex-Christians, which you are obviously NOT. I suppose if I came uninvited into your Sunday School class and argued with you all day, then you'd be the rude one and I'd be the poor victim of verbal abuse.
Think about it, you don't pay for this server space, you don't pay for the bandwidth, you've devoted no time toward maintaining the site, you're just a guest, a guest with an attitude—a self-righteous, pompous, superior attitude.
My ego is large? Undoubtedly it is. You'd have to have an ego to run a site like this for 5 years and faithfully answer the same idiotic, parroting comments from literally hundreds and thousands of mind-numbed, religious automatons. However, when it comes to ego, I recommend you take a hard look in a mirror, that is, if you can find one large enough to accomodate your entire head.
Face it Davey boy, your thinking abilities have been crippled by your religion. I'm sure you'd be nice guy, if you could ever be delivered from the Borg.
Pax
You claim there is a god, right? Where is the evidence? You claim there is an afterlife. PLEASE, show me the beef!
It is up to the one making fantastic claims to bring evidence to the table that supports the claims.
"It's all just theory," you say, which I take by that you mean your beliefs in the supernatural are just as valid as my doubts about the supernatural.
With that kind of crippled logic, I can claim that Bigfoot and I have an occasional light lunch with aliens on their UFO every third Wednesday. Then, instead of bringing any evidence to document my excursions, I smugly demand that you PROVE that what I say is not true.
People claiming knowledge of a god; a flying, un-dead, crucified man-god; and future life in eternal beautification or everlasting putrefaction, depending on which god is worshiped or not worshiped, need to present significant evidence supporting such bizarre claims.
Until then, your claims are equal in value to my reported tea-times with Sasquatch.
Again, PAX.
Since you're such a believer in the power of prayer, I invite and challenge you to use that powerful faith of yours to pray this site off the Internet. That shouldn't be too hard for your faith, or your god.
Waiting...
Waiting...
hmm...
Do you ever get tired of your own voice? I suspect not. This is your house but you left the doors open and the shades on the windows up. You let anyone come in and hang around. You have left yourself open for public scrutiny. If you don't want people in your house then shut the darn door, draw the blinds and then have your little party. Put a disclaimer stating your ideas and then state that all who do not agree with you, or whatever stipulations you want, may not enter. Then you can get on your soapboax, spread your message, and everyone can tell you how smart you are and smooch your rear end. Until you close the door all sorts of unwanted people will wander in.
I have already had this "Burden of Proof" talk with you. IF you want to have it again you can revisit the prior posts from the middle of March. OK? I do not see a need to have it again.
Talk about parroting the same stuff over and over.
"Your are so right webmaster" "Oh yes, and smart too" I just thought you might enjoy that. I have not seen anyone post a compliment to you in a while and thought you might be getting a little sore about it. Ahh, that feels better, doesn't it.
Dave Poole
You're finally being honest and showing your True Christian face.
God that was easy.
webmaster:Last comment.
Since you're such a believer in the power of prayer, I invite and challenge you to use that powerful faith of yours to pray this site off the Internet. That shouldn't be too hard for your faith, or your god.
Waiting...
Waiting...
hmm...
Didn't we already have this comment too. Nothing new to offer huh? When you can think of some new tripe, let me know. Good night.
Dave Poole
Too easy...
The definition of a Christian is not a door mat. I have said nothing wrong or out of line. No cussing or crass words, profanity or otherwise. I have not judged you or condemmed you. If my sarcasm offended or hurt your feelings then I apologize. And what is a true Christian face? Post it so we can all see and learn from your vast knoledge and pesimistic attitude. For the record I do hope you come around to the Lord again. Let me know when you do. I am still honoring your first prayer request to me. dpoole@ebmail.gdeb.com
Dave Poole
I do not think the Webmaster created this website for his glorification as you ignorantly suggested.
David you're so afraid that you will eventually find out that your phoney god and religious beliefs are false and you've made a public commitment (ass) out of yourself, in your commuinity, just like all other Christians.
Now you have no false god or jesus to validate and glorify you, and you have nothing but your phoney Christian friends and phoney preacher, thats all you have and as long as you support their silly beliefs you'll be approved, but if you should ever stand up and tell them it's all a lie, they will turn against you and you know it.
It's called conditional love, as long as you play along with their silly make-believe mind games, you're in, but the moment you stand up for truth, their god and jesus no longer loves you and they will not either, we've all been there and done that.
Grow David, give up the playpen jesus loves you myth, that your momma promised it was true.
Her parents told her the same bullshit when she was a little girl too.
The bible is all lies and bullshit.
According to the polls, a good time was had by all!
Thanks for fun, kid.
I know that for the superstitous, it's a scary thing to "tempt the Lawd," but I'm no more afraid of Yaweh than I am of Baal, Ra, Allah, or Old King Cole. The reason I'm not afraid of any of these characters, is that none of them are real.
I have to admit, however, that I do get a good chill from Stephen King novels.
You said, "...I try not to assume or judge...And if I ever came across as sounding that way then I apologize as that was not my intention."
Of course it was your intention. Otherwise what the hell are you doing on this web site arguing with us and trying to convince us we're wrong?
Also, you said "Is reachating [sic]the ear any less miraculous than it growing back? I don't think so."
Actually re-growing an ear would be way more miraculous since human body parts don't regenerate like a starfish (except for lungs and livers). Doctors re-attach appendages all the time with amazing success.
Webmaster:
I'll stroke your ego--you rock!!
...and I sure as shit won't be praying for you for any reason. (I was gonna say 'sure as hell', but then that would mean I would be praying.)
If he really was a true Christian, he would be devoting all of the time spent here with us heathens, to helping some of the innocent people who are experiencing horrible pain and suffering, those mistakes that God made, and hasn't got around to rectifying, or is to busy to give comfort to.
Dan (Humanist, Rationalist, Can't be Bullshittedist )
In other words, what are you still doing here!!!
The point is that this is an EX-Christian website and most people here don't have a belief in God, namely, the X-ian God, his son, and/or their ghost.
But hey, here's one more point to either consider, or conveniently ignore:
Anyone ever notice how X-ians define their ellusive god in terms of what he is NOT, and what he does NOT do?(the negative)
David Poole: "I don't(do *NOT) believe He(God) wants that."
Arbitrary X-ian 1: "It is *NOT God's will to do that."
Arbitrary X-ian 2: "You do *NOT have the right interpretation, that why it does *NOT happen your way."
Arbitrary X-ian 3: "God does *NOT work like that."
Arbitrary X-ian 4: "It's *NOT that God doesn't answer prayers---it's that YOU do *NOT have enough Faith."
"NOT", "NOT", "NOT", "NOT", "NOT".....X infinity.
Either provide sufficient POSITIVE objective evidence for your God(s)...or SCRAM!
Some people might be confused by your post. I believe you were responding to the post I left earlier around 4:00 pm. That post has been removed by the webmaster ( I can only assume). I guess he got rubbed the wrong way a bit. He told me once that he was more tolorant of other peoples opinions than I was. I guess this proves otherwise. Enjoy the bits and half-truths he spoon feeds you. When half of the information is censored how can you really know what is going on. Be careful of this guy. He behaves like the worst kind of bully. He pushes and provokes until someone stands up to him and then he runs home to mamma. In my opinion, a true coward. OUT!
Dave Poole
If your post was scrubbed, it would have said something like: "Removed by author"
Then again, why would the WM allow you to continue posting even right after the one you claimed was "removed?" If it was something really tasteless, I think he'll leave it there for all to see. WM ain't scured!
See, animals do have a purpose to survive and continue, barring from being extinct. We, humans have an advantage - time.
Instead you David spend much of it on stupid shit like superstitions. If your life span ranged from 3-5 years, where would the gods be?
Take my advise, in your next life, try to become a hamster...no worries about gods and devils eh...You will have 3 yrs to have as much sex and babies as you possible can, then, poof! It will all be over.
Hamster, right, got it the first time. Thanks
Dave Poole
Can you please provide us with POSITIVE *objective* evidence for Gods' existance---minus any excuses, straw men, ad hominem, or diversions. If so, I will SURELY follow His plan, even IF I don't like it.
Waiting.
In other words, David is actually saying (putting words into David’s mouth), “be careful of this guy, the one who offends me by throwing back to my face my own theological dung knowing I can’t defend it. It’s dreadful to not have control over my own life (I gave up control to my sky daddy), to point where with ever part of my being burns, *wishing* to control others? It's been quiet easy for me to get through to a few weak minded, really it has - BUT some how I just cannot penetrate here. They just won’t buy *it* (the bullshit) and that freaks me out!”
David, Think "hamster"
No evidence exists that would satisfy you. Not according to you criteria. We would love to have you anyway, however.
To south2003,
I think it is the ex-christians who are trying to sell their wares. "It's all bullshit", "God doesn't exist", "It's all in your head", "You imagined it". Show me where I ever attacked your beliefs. You guys have the adgenda, not me.
"It's been quiet easy for me to get through to a few weak minded, really it has - BUT some how I just cannot penetrate here. They just won’t buy *it* (the bullshit) and that freaks me out!”" Wow, what a statement. Basically your saying that all Christians are weak-minded fools and all of the exchristians who frequent this site are scholastic savants who are above all this "hocus pocus" Christian nonsense. Brilliant scholars who will not be fooled by the religious right. You're so concerned with and invested in Christianity being wrong that you wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face. No matter what it was. If a Christian delives it, it must be wrong. Wow.
South2003 said: Then again, why would the WM allow you to continue posting even right after the one you claimed was "removed?" If it was something really tasteless, I think he'll leave it there for all to see. WM ain't scured!
I spoke against the all-knowing webmaster. BIG NO NO. So it was removed.
This is just stupid. I gave into petty name calling and arguing. Enjoy your party. I still think you should keep the door closed.
Dave Poole
David Poole: "No evidence exists that would satisfy you."
What would "satisfy" me is anything EXCEPTING something that would require me to have "faith". Having "faith" is essentially nothing more than Agnosticism. Why?...because you do not, and CANNOT, "know" that something exists without empirical and/or scientific evidence. If you had the evidence, you would not need the "faith".
Hence, the reason David Poole doesn't have the evidence isn't because of my "criteria", or "us", or "Ex-Christians", or "Webmasters", or "Devils"......it's because there IS NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE TO GIVE.
As I said, provide the evidence and I will follow, even if I DON'T like the plan.
Waiting.(still)
I would venture to say that good Ole Saint Davey chose the Bible religion to believe, because it was the first one introduced to him by his mother or father. I would almost be willing to say that Davey never studied or delved into any other religion(s), because he was exposed to christianity and it met his criteria in order to fit into his surrounding environment.
Christianity is a safe religion to belong to, because most people fit into the Status Quo.
Where as Atheistism is looked down upon as rebellion against god and the silly bible mind cult beliefs.
To proclaim Atheistism can be risky, it goes against the Status Quo, I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.
A banner of bigotry and deceit.
WHAT?! First of all. My mother was raised catholic and never brought us (the kids) to church at all. My father studied Daoism, he did the buddist thing for a while, and some other self-realization something or other that I am not really familiar with. They both however taught us to find our own way. I did. Not because it was exposed to me, but because Christianity was real to me. I can not say that for the other religions I have studied/researched.
Now, let's look at the second part of your post. Ben said:
Christianity is a safe religion to belong to, because most people fit into the Status Quo.
Where as Atheistism is looked down upon as rebellion against god and the silly bible mind cult beliefs.
To proclaim Atheistism can be risky, it goes against the Status Quo, I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.
False statement 1. Christianity is a safe religion. This is true in churches, maybe. There is a war going on against Christians in this country. If you tell people that you believe in buddah or gaia, mother earth or crystals or ganisha they are much more excepting of it then if you say you are a Christian. They are excepting of it because these religions do not demand a lot of you. Mind your own, find your chakra, live and let live. People are comfortable with this. Christianity, being CHRIST-like demands more from you. It requires change, not complacance. That is why people are affraid of it.
False statement 2. Atheism is looked down upon. It is not hard to say that you are atheist. Where are you excluded from or how are you discriminated against. Do Christians exclude you? You don't want to be around those people anyway. This whole country these days is about breaking convention, being different, breaking the mold. Seems like atheism is great way to do that. If you're not fitting in somewhere it probably isn't becasue you are an atheist, it may have something to do with that "bubbly" disposition.
Dumbfounding statement 1.
I know this from first hand experience, and the christians spout how they love everybody, until you announce you are an Atheist and their demeaner immediately changes and communication with them immediately starts to plummet, and I have seen christians get vile and downright self-rightously nasty and vicious. This usually tells the Atheist immediately what banner they really are portraying.
This is the most rediculous statement I have heard. I have read most of your posts. You call Christians stupid, mock their beliefs, call Christianity a cult, say their Lord does not exist. And then you have the gall to get offended when they say something back. Give me a break.
Every year 15 MILLION children die of hunger.
For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years.
Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days!
The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.
In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"
One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture
The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. Hunger in Global Economy
Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. UNICEF
3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.
In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.
In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.
The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.
One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.
Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.
In 1997 alone, the lives of at least 300,000 young children were saved by vitamin A supplementation programmes in developing countries.
Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death
About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age
To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.
The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.
Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger
It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.
*List provided