News of interest to former Christians


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Known as ‘ Darwin’s Rottweiler’, Professor Richard Dawkins relishes controversy. In his new TV series he explains how religion is a form of abuse – and why God is man’s most destructive invention ++ Why do you believe in your God? Because he talks to you inside your head? The Yorkshire Ripper claimed his murders were ordered by Jesus.

Imagine, sang John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Kashmir dispute, no Indian partition, no Israel/Palestine war, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no Northern Ireland “troubles”. Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it. Imagine no persecutions of the Jews – no Jews to persecute indeed, for, without religious taboos against marrying out, the Diaspora would long ago have merged into Europe.

Hitler invoked “My feelings as a Christian” to justify his anti-Semitism, and he wrote in Mein Kampf: “I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” Nevertheless, most such atrocities are not directly motivated by religion. IRA gunmen didn’t kill Protestants (or vice versa) over disagreements about transubstantiation or such theological niceties. The motive was more likely to be tribal vengeance. One of “them” killed one of “us”. “They” drove “our” great-grandfathers out of ancestral lands. Grievances are economic and political, not religious; and vendettas stretch “unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”. Quoting Exodus reminds me, incidentally, that humanists prefer Gandhi’s version: “An eye for an eye make the whole world blind.”

But if tribal wars are not about religion, the fact that there are separate tribes at all frequently is. Some tribes may divide along racial or linguistic lines, but in Northern Ireland what else is there but religion? The same applies to Indo-Pakistan, Serbo-Croatia, and various regions of Indonesia and Africa. Religion is today’s most divisive label of group identity and hostility. If a social engineer set out to devise a system for perpetuating our most vicious enmities, he could find no better formula than sectarian education. The main point of faith schools is that the children of “our” tribe must be taught “their own” religion. Since the children of the other tribe are simultaneously being taught the rival religion with, of course, the rival version of the vendetta-riven history, the prognosis is all too predictable.

But what can it mean to speak of a child’s “own” religion? Imagine a world in which it was normal to speak of a Keynesian child, a Hayekian child, or a Marxist child. Or imagine a proposal to pour government money into separate primary schools for Labour children, Tory children and Lib Dem children. Everyone agrees that small children are too young to know whether they are Keynesian or Monetarist, Labour or Tory: too young to bear the burden of heavy parental labels. Why, then, is almost our entire society happy to privilege religion, and slap a lab like Catholic or Protestant, Muslim or Jew, on a tiny child? Isn’t that a form of mental child abuse?a I once made that poiint in a broadcast debate with a Roman Catholic spokeswoman. I’ve forgotten her name but I she was some kind of agony aunt, and a stalwart of the Today programme’s “Thought f the Day”. When I said that a primary school child was too young to know whether it was a CCatholic child, she bristled: “Just come and talk to some of the children in our local Catholic school! I can assure you they know very well that they are Catholic children.” I believe it. The Jesuit boast – “Give me the child for his first seven years, and I’ll give you the man”– is no less sinister for being familiar to the point of cliché.

But what if religion is true? Surely sectarian indoctrination wouldn’t be child abuse if it saved the child’s immortal soul? Despite the smug presumptuousness of that, I can almost sympathise, if you sincerely believe your religion is the absolute truth. Let me, then, be ambitious if not presumptuous, and try to shake your belief.

Why do you believe in your God? Because he talks to you inside your head? Alas, the Yorkshire Ripper’s murders were ordered by the perceived voice of Jesus inside his head. The human brain is a consummate hallucinator, and hallucinations are a poor basis for real world beliefs. Or perhaps you believe in God because life would be intolerable without him. That’s an even weaker argument. Lots of things are intolerable and it doesn’t make them untrue. It may be intolerable that you are starving, but you can’t eat a stone by believing – no matter how passionately and sincerely – that it is made of cheese.

By far the favourite reason for believing in God is the argument from improbability. Eyes and skeletons, hearts and nerve cells are too improbable to have come about by chance. Man-made machines are improbable too, and designed by engineers for a purpose. Surely any fool can see that eyes and kidneys, wings and blood corpuscles must also be designed for a purpose, by a master Engineer? Well, maybe any fool can see it, but let’s stop playing the fool and grow up. It is 146 years since Charles Darwin gave us what is arguably the cleverest idea ever to occur to a human mind. He demonstrated a beautiful, working process whereby natural forces, by gradual degrees and with no deliberate purpose, forge an elegant illusion of design, to almost limitless levels of complexity.

I have written books on the subject and obviously can’t repeat the whole argument in a short article. Let me give just two guidelines to understanding. First, the commonest fallacy about natural selection is that it is a theory of chance. If it were, it is entirely obvious that it couldn’t explain the illusion of design. But natural selection, properly understood, is the antithesis of chance. Second, it is often said that natural selection makes God unnecessary, but leaves his existence an open plausibility. I think we can do better than that. When you think it through, the argument from improbability, which traditionally is deployed in God’s favour, turns out to be the strongest argument against him.

The beauty of Darwinian evolution is that it explains the very improbable, by gradual degrees. It starts from primeval simplicity (relatively easy to understand) and works up, by plausibly small steps, to complex entities whose genesis, by any non-gradual process, would be too improbable for serious contemplation. Design is a real alternative, but only if the designer is himself the product of an escalatory process such as evolution by natural selection, either on this planet or elsewhere. There may be alien life forms so advanced that we would worship them as gods. But they too must ultimately be explained by gradual escalation. Gods that exist ab initio are ruled out by the argument from improbability, even more surely than are spontaneously erupting eyes or elbow joints.

Religion may not be the root of all evil, but it is a serious contender. Even so it could be justified, if only its claims were true. But they are undermined by science and reason. Imagine a world where nobody is intimidated against following reason, wherever it leads. “You may say I’m a dreamer. But I’m not the only one.”

Professor Richard Dawkins is the Chair of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. The Root of All Evil?, Professor Dawkins’ series looking at religion, is on 9 and 16 January at 8pm on Channel 4 link
 
Blogger Sandy Knauer said...
Well, maybe any fool can see it, but let’s stop playing the fool and grow up.

I appreciated the entire article, but absolutely love this line.

Thanks.


Anonymous Angie said...
Before anyone brings up atheistic communism remember that communism itself is essentially a form of religion. It is an ideology that requires complete devotion to the state, just like religion requires complete devotion to a god or gods. The state tells a communist how to think. A religious institution such as a church, mosque or temple tells the religious how to think.

Communists rejected the concept of god because they feared that the people would put god before the state.

Blind unquestioning belief in any ideology, religious or nonreligious, is harmful.


Anonymous brando said...
What is "7/7"?


Anonymous SpaceMonk said...
To me religion is just a step on the human path of enlightenment.
In early times it provided easy answers to the big questions, ie. god did it, it's all about god, etc... but nowadays we know better.
It's just going to take a long time to shake the old 'traditions'.

The 'evil' of it all is to stubbornly hang on to it, imposing outdated morals and restrictions onto innocents and ignorants despite all logic, science and reasoning.

"If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction."
- Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism


Anonymous SpaceMonk said...
7/7 is the London bombings.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Christians have God, communists have The state, Christians have The Bible, communists have The Communist Manifesto. Both Christians and communists indoctrinate their followers with their respective ideologies, both try to win "converts," including through force if necessary. Christians and communists believe anyone who rejects their ideology is bad, non christians and capitalists respectively. Their way is the only right way.

Just like Atheism is not the problem, Theism is not the problem. I know many people who believe there is a god but reject religion. Theism in and of itself does not cause wars, mass killings, bigotry, stonings, beheadings, terrorism, group think, hostility toward people with different views, hostility toward people who make different lifestyle choices, them versus us attitudes, forced conversions, self hatred, rejection of scientific knowledge, and so on. Unyielding ideological belief systems cause these problems.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Please, can some one say when, station, locations, Dawkin's TV series is on. I hadn't imagined any program critical of religious views would make it to TV.


Anonymous Dave8 said...
Anonymous posted: 1/08/2006 11:01 PM: "Unyielding ideological belief systems cause these problems."

True, however, it doesn't help, when there is a guidebook called the bible, which gives example after example of "unyielding" and "intolerant" practices... Some Christians say they are tolerant and inclusive... while holding the bible in their hand, and swearing it to be god's word, and themselves as loyal followers... I think the bible, should be seen as alcohol... no one can "use" the bible, in an argument, even to found their own belief, until they are old and mature enough to understand the true, literal meaning of the book... If someone wants to believe the bible is the guidance from a god, then they need to also just come straight out and say... everyone that doesn't believe in jesus, is going to hell... at least there would be some continuity of logic, no matter how absurd... You can't reason, with someone who has little to no knowledge, and who is at the same time filled with unbridled emotion to let everyone know what they think...


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
It's playing on television in England. Google it.


Anonymous Madbuni said...
Never mind the great article, this guy is hot!!! LOL. (Sorry, I had to say it)

I have his book The Selfish Gene, but have not started it due to having about 6 books started. I wish the series could be brought to the USA, but of course the fundies would ban it for sure.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
I'm not sure what I consider myself ... probably a skeptic. My only issue with evolution is that it's hard to imagine a "semi-evolved" person or animal. What would it look like in the formative stages? I can't really fathom a thing with only a partially functioning circulatory system or a non-functioning eye. In fact, how would such a thing live long enough to be able to reproduce and replicate its current state onto others?


Anonymous Jim Lee said...
Richard Dawkins gets my vote. No need to say anymore.


Anonymous Shannon said...
Anon said: "...it's hard to imagine a "semi-evolved" person or animal."

Richard Dawkins has answered the question: "What good is a half of an eye?" with: "An half of an eye is 1% better than 49%."


Anonymous Forever and ever said...
I agree with Jim lee
Richard Dawkins gets my vote. No need to say anymore.

madbuni wrote
I wish the series could be brought to the USA, but of course the fundies would ban it for sure.

Hope you can make American broadcasters aware of the series.
Madbuni

You can be assured that it will be aired in my country. Australia.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
There is probably no religion more evil than Calvinism. If anyone is unfamiliar with this diabolical sect, suffice it to say that Fred Phelps is one. Most Calvinists will deny any relation to that guy, but Phelps is Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion.

Try arguing with one: it's impossible. They are beyond reason, beyond compassion, beyond any sense. They twist the meaning of words until they are meaningless.

The jist is this: God created Hell with the sole purpose of creating men to send there, with the exception of the "elect" (of which the Calvinists are "certain" they are beyond a shadow of a doubt). Their arrogance is exceeded only by their heartlessness.

I'd be interested in hearing of anyone that is a former Calvinist or has read a good refutation of Calvinist beliefs. It's hard, though. Most Christians I know are at least willing to listen: Calvinists will call you a child of Hell for even raising the question.


Blogger Rising_L said...
This documentary was fantastic, I loved the way it didn't only focous on Christianity but also Islam. The fact that it is a series makes it so much better. I can't wait til the next one.


Anonymous scottnogod said...
I'm a former calvinist. It the logical conclusion of believing in an all powerfull all knowing God. It definitely shows the evils of christianity a bit more openly than other forme.


Blogger Cameron said...
I thought this documentary was excellent. It made a deeper impact on me personally than anything I had seen on TV in a long time. I had already heard of Professor Dawkins and had some idea of what he was all about, but this turned me into a number one fan. I thought that what he did was courageous and highly informative, unashamedly forcing those with a nonchalant or sympathetic attitude towards religion to face reality. Experience has taught me that unless you thrust reality right in the faces of such people they will just flatly deny it. Indeed, even when they are well-and-truly cornered they will often still try to do deny it. It is exactly the kind of bold, politically incorrect stance adopted by Dawkins that is needed. It is a pity the show cannot be viewed in the US because a significant part of it is filmed there. Dawkins briefly debates against a Bible belt pastor who is very high up in the Evangelical movement in America (forgive the lack of a specific name - does anyone else who saw it remember?). The pastor lost his temper and threatened to call the police on Dawkins and his camera crew.
I live in the UK and watched it on Monday night. It is on again next Monday on BBC4, I believe, at 8pm.


Blogger Cameron said...
I thought this documentary was excellent. It made a deeper impact on me personally than anything I had seen on TV in a long time. I had already heard of Professor Dawkins and had some idea of what he was all about, but this turned me into a number one fan. I thought that what he did was courageous and highly informative, unashamedly forcing those with a nonchalant or sympathetic attitude towards religion to face reality. Experience has taught me that unless you thrust reality right in the faces of such people they will just flatly deny it. Indeed, even when they are well-and-truly cornered they will often still try to do deny it. It is exactly the kind of bold, politically incorrect stance adopted by Dawkins that is needed. It is a pity the show cannot be viewed in the US because a significant part of it is filmed there. Dawkins briefly debates against a Bible belt pastor who is very high up in the Evangelical movement in America (forgive the lack of a specific name - does anyone else who saw it remember?). The pastor lost his temper and threatened to call the police on Dawkins and his camera crew.
I live in the UK and watched it on Monday night. It is on again next Monday on BBC4, I believe, at 8pm.


Blogger freeman said...
Just because we do not live in the UK, does not mean that we cannot view it. HEHE.

If anyone has bittorrent, you can find the download here.
http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=the+root+of+all+evil

It is in avi format. I will be downloading tonight!


Anonymous Salvatore said...
I am a former Calvinist. The doctrine of predestination, aside from having explicit references in the Babble, also seems to me a necessary consequence of an omnicient Being.

Now, however, the idea of predestining even a single sentient being to a fiery torment, even a temporal one, is abhorrent.

Most Calvinists that I knew (and know) don't cherish the idea of "predestined to damnation" for the reprobate (i.e., "non-elect"). Nor did I. I had come to the Calvinst conclusion only after a couples years' worth of study on that single issue, and not without a good deal of painful rumination.

I'm not an infallible interpreter of the Babble, but after years of cover-to-cover study, I believe that Calvinism is the only consistent soteriology (i.e., "doctrine of salvation") that can be deduced from the totality of the passages.

However, at present I am an atheist and have no regard for the teachings of the Babble (except for common ethics such as "loving your neighbor", "helping the poor", etc.), so I could care a less what position it asserts on the doctrine of salvation.

As a side note, however, I must confess that my compassion and love for my fellow humanity has increased exponentially since I've departed from Calvinism.

As a Calvinist, I did regard myself as one of the God's chosen (i.e., predestined for heaven), however I did not see that election as having been merited by anything in myself. (A "true Calvinist" will recognize that s/he is no different than anyone else, merits hell like anyone else, and is saved only by the free and sovereign grace of God. Even faith, per the Calvinist, is the gift of God to his chosen people.) But even so, after a while within Calvinism, I did come to regard people with no signs of regeneration as being "beneath" me. I did feel a deep spiritual pride welling up within me, slowing turning into a hatred of other people.

At my worst, I had affiliated myself with what is called "Christian Reconstruction". In short, headed up by hardcore Calvinists who believe in reconstructing American society using the laws of the Babble as the foundation. I came to believe that executing an offender for the "crime" of breaking the Sabbath (as per the Babble) was a good thing.

I look back on those days with nausia.

I am very glad to be relieved of that virulent station. Nowadays, I have the total freedom to love anyone, regardless of his creed (although, I must honestly confess, I am most annoyed and even angered against Muslims for their willingness to blow up themselves and anyone else).

I believe the best way for love to rule the nations is for religion, of every stripe, to be wiped from our minds and cultures.

I recently wrote in blog to my own children:

Religion, in ideal and pretext, would have its believers march under a banner of love. However, in reality, propels its adherents to war.
When you survey the despised, oppressed, tortured, and dead of history, you will find that their nemeses had all a similar resolute conviction: "God is with us."

---

I believe, as agnostics and atheists, that in order to convert theists to our camp, we must show them that there is love and fulfillment to be found apart from an imaginary friend. I am saddened that we are often so caustic and abrasive on this site. I am just as guilty, however: I've torn into a great deal of exChristian friends of mine. My wounds from Christianty are still there and it doesn't require much to open them afresh (especially when they start in with their classic drone-speak). But, friends, if we shall convert theists, we must make them feel genuinely loved; more so than they can find within their religions.

Warmest of Regards,
Salvatore


Anonymous Dan said...
Good point Salvatore, but it sure is hard to bring them around when they constantly brag on the church members and tell how much the preacher is a true man of god and that they are doing gods holy will, it'so hard to bring them into reality, most are zombies, most are way too far gone. Religion has gone unquestioned way too long now, it's made it's grip, basically all around the world.

I see no hope in ever disolving the grip of religion, it would take a tragic event, like bird flu, to kill millions and millions, although that possibility could happen, but that is the only way. I think that is what Hitler tried to do. I can't understand how people have let the religion virus infect so many, without it being questioned until just recently by probably the most people ever in the history of the world. It's obvious it doesn't take much to mesmerize whole nations into a zombie state. All the world leaders know this too.


Blogger .:webmaster:. said...
Salvatore:

You and I have much in common.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
I am in the Uk and saw the Dawkins program. I am unsure of my own stance .. brought up a Christian but can see whole lot of sense and logic in Dawkins views. What I am interested in is other peoples views on 'spirituality' rather than religion. Ok so Dawkins can show 'religion' is bad. BUT does that mean that humans have NO spiritual side? Does noone else feel that humans have more than just mind and body evolved from nothing just as trees and rocks. Do we not have the ability to love, forgive, 'feel' right and wrong etc - things that cannot be scientifically proven but which, for most people, are key to their lives?
My point is that Dawkins is using his brain - excellent. But are there not issues of the 'heart', which he is missing and provides no answers for? I think its this side of humanity which 'religion' attempts to address. Is there space for the spiritual side of any Human in Dawkins brave new world?
Any thoughts?


Blogger Cameron said...
I'm all for spiritual fulfilment and have spent nearly twenty years in search of it (I'm 23). Some time after losing my Christian faith I discovered neo-Paganism and thought for a while that I had found my niche in Wicca. I was attracted by the equality of male and female symbolised by reverence for a goddess as well as a god, and the profound respect for, and love of the natural world in itself (rather than as the proud boast of a dictatorial creator). I personally find that I need my independence and would probably do better to stay out of any religion, even Wicca.
It is worth my underlining that after extensive and open-minded searching I have never found any real evidence for any god, goddess, or the workings of magic. This is why, at present I consider myself an atheist.


Anonymous Anonymous said...
Religion in a nutshell:

Long ago, when everyone knew the earth was flat, 'wise' men were asked difficult questions about why we were here, where we came from, who made the sun etc.
Lacking the basic understanding required to answer these questions, and not wanting to lose face, they invented God. "God did it", they proclaimed. "And if you don't believe in Him, you'll be struck down and go to Hell" (they invented Hell too!).

These seems slightly laughable now but what is not so funny is that there are still significant portions of the human race in the 21st Century who buy into this rubbish.
A 4 year old child's favourite word is 'Why'. Religion is the cop out that never allows 'Why' to be uttered. There's more evidence for the existence of natural selection than there is for any God and no-one who studies Darwinism does it because they were told to. It's about asking 'Why' until you start getting answers - and we're not there yet. But it's a much more interesting journey than having 'Faith' that "God did it".


Anonymous Anonymous said...
As as a result of the way Karl Marx denounced religion and belief in God as the "Opiate of the Masses" communism did everything in its power to stamp out religion.

The former Soviet Union was one excellent example as to why we must have total seperation of church and state!

Throughout the history of the Soviet Union, millions of Christians, Jews, and people of other religions were sent to the gulags for refusing to become atheists and renounce their religious beliefs.

However, as an ex-Christian myself, I know communism is a repressive, intolerant mindset that is just oppressive as religious fundamentalism!

Actually, it would make more sense for a billionaire like Donald Trump or Bill Gates to join the Communist Party than it would be for an average working person to join. This is because communism pretends to be for the common person, but it's real purpose is the establish iron-clad dictatorship of the rich and powerful ruling elite. In other words, communism pretends to be Robin Hood, when it is really the Sheriff of Nottingham in disguise!

Concerning communism there is this little-known contrast; Francis Bellamy, the man who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, was a Baptist minister who advocated socialism in his sermons!
Obviously, Bellamy believed that communism was what BibleGod wanted!

This makes me wonder how different would the history of the communist world have been, beginning with the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, if Karl Marx, instead of condemning religion, advocated communism as God's will for mankind and purpose on Earth?!!

Would it been have atheists, agnostics, scientists caught teaching evolution, and other freethinkers sent to the gulags, intead of Christians and Jews?

Would church attendance and possesion of Bibles and religious icons, have been mandatory, instead of being prohibited?

In other words, would the former Soviet Union, and today's communist countries like mainland China, Cuba, and North Korea, be theocratic dictatorships, like Inquisition-era Spain and Saudi Arabia is today?


Blogger Cameron said...
Religious believers who point to Communism as an example of overwhelming wickedness perpetrated by atheists are overlooking a fundamental flaw there, which is that Communism is undemocratic. There is no point in telling me that Communism is evil. I agree, but what's it got to do with me? I've never been a communist and never will be, but Communism has far more in common with religions, especially monotheisms, than it does with my humanistic principles, which demand human rights, universal suffrage, REAL education (as opposed to what so often passes for it), a minimum of laws but a maximum of security, liberty, justice, etc.
Communism has never valued any of these, but then nor do theocracies. You can't vote God out of office any more than you can vote Stalin out of office. Is God any better than Stalin? He's got his own version of the Gulag (Hell) reserved, not only for his active opponents but even for those who merely fail to render the constant adulation he demands. He has people starving, being killed in wars and disasters, children getting abducted for use as prostitutes, wives being abused...and from all such people he demands grovelling apologies for their alleged "sins" whilst watching their anguish with folded arms, occasionally reminding them that they deserve it for their indulgence in one or another of a long and boring list of supposedly immoral behaviours.


Anonymous Eric said...
Salvatore:

Questions:

Why should we "help the poor" and "love our neighbor?" If there is no higher calling or eternal future to look to, shouldn't it be take mine at all costs? Doesn't that make a better life for YOU? Or do you see an inherent worth in people? Where does that worth come from? Darwinism doesn't teach personal worth. It is hard to get worked up over a blob of proto-plasm. Believe me, I've tried.

Don't mistake your distaste for a "denomination" for the Christian religion. I would challenge everyone with that. If you are really interested in the truth, are you truly committed to where that truth might lead, or do you have preconceived notions before you approach?

Flew had to finally admit that the truth led to something to which he had opposed so vehemently.


Blogger Billy Wheaton said...
But what if religion is true? Surely sectarian indoctrination wouldn’t be child abuse if it saved the child’s immortal soul? Despite the smug presumptuousness of that, I can almost sympathise, if you sincerely believe your religion is the absolute truth. Let me, then, be ambitious if not presumptuous, and try to shake your belief
I found your post helpful. Indeed, the other day I was explaining to an Evangelical why I had a problem with Evangelical missionaries in Sudan. On the surface, they are providing a valuable service (and I feel justified in feeling hypocritical for criticizing as I am not there helping). What is happening there is horrific and tears at verually every compassionate humans heart. I feel most would wholeheartedly support providing a safe, clean and nourishing environment for the children that have been raped, enslaved, starved and emotionally terrorized in Sudan. Yet Christian missionaries feel they need to do more!

Disclaimer-(I'm not critical of all missionaries there, in fact my conversation with the Evangelical was about missionaries that were guests on Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family. So if you know missionary with pure motives, I am not discussing them.) Anyway, these missionary plainly (and proudly I might add)state there primary goal centers around bringing these young minds to "Jesus"! This changes a precious gift to all mankind into child abuse, all be it not to the extent of these children's previous abuse. I feel it warrants the category of abuse for multiple reasons:

1) The most obvious reason to me concerns the minimal capacity for these children to disagree or reject these Christian teaching. Indeed, these vulnerable children likely will passionately mimic anybody who provides this type of environment for them. There vulnerability makes pushing a religious agenda seem opportunistic and manipulative.
2) Even if you believe your Evangelical God is real, you are sanctioning this behavior for ALL faiths. Thus, if you feel some international human rights monitoring body should not condemn your behavior, then they shouldn't condemn any other faith actions. Thus unwittingly the Evangelical are indirectly sanctioning "abuse" by other group. For example, a fundamentalist muslim sect could establish a similar relief effort that aggressively convert children to Islam. Virtually every Evangelical would disaprove of this type of behavior. Ironically, most would consider it child abuse!

3) Thanks to this post my third contention concerns applying the same rigors that society applies to science research, medical research and ethics to faith based missions. If your God is the only true God then your God and you as his representative should required to but your beliefs into context for review and scrutiny of the international community. If aspects of your argument show the Evangelicals to likely represent the only true God then we could then discuss possible ways of presenting that information to vulnerable children. I feel that educating these children about any faith should never be manipulative, threatening (like you will burn in Hell if you do't believe) or insensitive to future complications (like sending a "born-again" christian into a predominantly Islamic community without the copeing skills to handle this situation.)

Any organization involved in this type of international endeavor have the burden of proof of showing that their actions serve the best interests of these children free of manipulation and abuse. Until this is done, I and I feel others are justified in assuming their methods are abusive. But, if you feel differently, then you should have to prove your position to all of us.
Thanks for your help. Your insight clarified this issue for me. billywheaton from billywheaton.com


Anonymous Eric said...
To Billy Wheaton:

One point. You never answered the questions I asked. I never made an assertion, just asked questions and gave warnings against impetuous decision making. You and Salvatore have on the other hand have made several definitive assertions. I am only asking for clarificaion.

Eric

Oh yes, I lied. I did make an assertion. I did say that Darwinism doesn't teach personal worth, but I may be wrong. Please, feel free to expound upon this point as well.


Anonymous Salvatore said...
Eric wrote
>
> Salvatore:
> Questions:
>
> Why should we "help the poor" and "love our
> neighbor?" If there is no higher calling or
> eternal future to look to, shouldn't it be
> take mine at all costs? Doesn't that make a
> better life for YOU?

I don't see how a "higher calling" or "eternal future" is necessary for the performance of these actions ("helping the poor", et al.). It may give some people, perhaps yourself, a "motive" so as to perform such acts. And yes, I can see where the lack of such "motive" could certainly justify one to live so as to benefit only himself. But, it must be noted here that many criminals have been brought up to understand that there is a "higher calling" of life and an "eternal future", but they continue in their selfish lifestyles. Hence, even if a "higher calling" and an "eternal future" do exist, they are insufficient to rid the earth of selfish criminals.

Since I don't believe in absolute ethics, I can only speak for myself: I do these things because it makes me feel good. When I help others, I feel happy. When I love my neighbor as myself, it promotes a maximal society utility. And to think: I do these things without the threat of eternal damnation hanging over my head.


> Or do you see an inherent
> worth in people? Where does that worth come
> from? Darwinism doesn't teach personal worth.
> It is hard to get worked up over a blob of
> proto-plasm. Believe me, I've tried.

Value, as you know, is in the eye of the beholder. I value my fellow life forms, especially my species. As such, I act accordingly. There are many people who don't value human life and they, consistently, do not act accordingly. I don't value what I do because a "Cosmic Enforcer" requires it.


> Don't mistake your distaste for a "denomination"
> for the Christian religion. I would challenge
> everyone with that. If you are really interested
> in the truth, are you truly committed to where
> that truth might lead, or do you have preconceived
> notions before you approach?

Eric, perhaps you've seen through other posts of mine, that I used to read the Bible cover-to-cover on a yearly basis, and spent the better part of thirty years diligently seeking "the truth of Christianity." I've explored the teachings and practices of many Christian denominations in the search for "the truth." What I found was a horribly fragmented mess of fear and ignorance-based superstitions.

I have no preconceived notions. I was the most diligent defender of the Christian faith "back in the day." If anything, I had an ultimate presupposition of the Christian religion. I converted to atheism only after having exhausted myself trying to the locate the God of the Bible.

Ethical theory need not locate its basis in Theism. As a practical means, the real role that the god of a religion plays is to be the "Cosmic Spanker" for the "bad boy" and his "sinful deeds." As a society, if we believe that X is wrong, then we should legislate stiff enough punishments so as to act as a deterent. We don't need imaginary beings, supposed holy men, and hopelessly contradictory holy books to dictate our lives. We, as intelligent beings, can determine ethical behavior without all these superstitions.


Anonymous Eric said...
I’m not trying to be annoying, but I have some more questions.

> Since I don't believe in absolute >ethics, I can only speak for >myself: I do these things because >it makes me feel good.

I assume by this statement, that you are a moral relativist. My questions follow: Is “feeling good” alone a reason for benevolence? If society determines our actions, what happens when society’s traditions change in a manner which becomes contrary to ours personal convictions? Are we to change only because someone of greater assumed authority mandates it so? Am I not free then, to do what makes ME feel good? Are some things not intuitively wrong-like torturing infants?

>But, it must be noted here that >many criminals have been brought up >to understand that there is a >"higher calling" of life and an >"eternal future", but they continue >in their selfish lifestyles.

Is not “understanding” and “applying” two different things. Do not smokers often understand that smoking cigarettes is harmful, but do not apply this information to their lifestyles?

> Value, as you know, is in the eye >of the beholder.
> There are many people who don't >value human life and they, >consistently, do not act >accordingly.

Are some things not intuitively wrong-like torturing infants? If moral relativism is true, how are we to say anything is wrong?

>"Cosmic Spanker”

That’s funny. I’ve never heard that one. I’ll have to remember that.

I don’t want to come across as quarrelsome; I’m really seeking clarity on your position. I’m looking forward to your reply. Thank you in advance.


Anonymous Dave8 said...
I thought I'd chime in, and put in my two cents.

Eric: "Is “feeling good” alone a reason for benevolence?"

Is it morally right to take a persons' individual freedoms away, to the point, that they can't experience "any" form of personal pleasure, if their actions only effect themselves. If you accept that a person has moral freedoms to the self, then you are suggesting moral relativism. In a universal sense, moral relativism exists because no two people can agree on what is "pleasurable" or "morally correct". Its the reason moral relativism, requires courts and judges, and a political framework where the majority of a society vote on what they feel is morally correct - democracy. We have judges, that sit on benches to try and ensure fair legal action occurs in the "very" gray areas of law.

Eric: "If society determines our actions, what happens when society’s traditions change in a manner which becomes contrary to ours personal convictions?"

Traditional changes in society? There are multiple levels of law in the U.S. that aren't symmetrical. From one state to another the level of sobriety to determine DUI is different, entire sets of blue laws are different between cities of the U.S. The federal gov't has executive orders which are published as law to the executive branch of the government which is different than public law. There is civil law and then there is criminal law.

There are entire laws that are on the books at the federal level, that only apply to the military, and not civilian society. Here, have a look at one of these laws, and see how many people you know, that would be in federal prison.

The Uniform Code Of Military Justice:

Article 125-Sodomy
“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Explanation.

It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.

Okay, no oral or anal sex between any gender in any shape or form. That means a married military person engaging in foreplay, can be court-martialed and sent to federal prison, having a permanent record accessible by any federal agency or state law enforcement agency. Oh, and there is no such thing as double jeapordy between federal and state law. If a person gets thrown in prison for oral sex, lets say for "six" years, as I have witnessed, and the state has a law on the books as well, then the individual gets out of federal prison and then stands trial in civil court.

What happens when society's traditions change, and they no longer conform to your personal ethics and beliefs in human dignity? If you are in the minority, you either suck it up, or you move to a state that will allow you the freedom to live a life with self-respect. If you can't find a state, then you move on. I have family that moved to Canada in the past few years, to escape the "abusive" environment that religious "fundamentalists" bring to the U.S., unchecked. Is it right that my family had to "move"? No. Do you think, my family should have taken up arms, and attempted to "establish" by force their absolute views, based on human dignity? Why don't you tell us, what you think.

Eric: "Are we to change only because someone of greater assumed authority mandates it so?"

Absolutism doesn't need to be put into law, to be practiced by a community. The bible establishes "greater authority" for entire groups, and they treat people in their cities accordingly. We have had judges in the past few years, plastering religious statues on federal property. No, people shouldn't have to kowtow to absolutists in any form, but absolutism can come from 'one individual' or it can be established by entire legal systems. There are gov't frameworks that protect individual rights, democracy, and then there are other gov'ts that don't. If a gov't states its a democracy and protecting civil rights, but fails to enforce or follow through with the constitutional rights of citizens, its the citizens who must rise and change the leadership. However, if the majority of citizens support restrictive laws and loss of civil rights, then, the minority of the democracy will suffer. Hence, why some people move from nations, until a change in weather occurs.

Eric: "Am I not free then, to do what makes ME feel good?"

As an individual, you have individual freedoms to a large degree, however, you can not intringe upon the civil rights of others in this nation.

Eric: "Are some things not intuitively wrong-like torturing infants?"

You may like burning yourself with cigarettes, masochism. I may consider that "intuitively wrong" in my subjective life, but then, I don't have the right to infringe upon your right to civil freedoms.

Removing all leagal systems, and gov'ts, is there such a thing as "Natural Law", or "self-evident" truths? Its relative...

A woman has the right to "live". If she is having a baby that will kill her in child birth, does she have the "right", to abort that baby, even if some ignorant moron, thinks it torturing the embryo. You decide, when you do. Tell us how you would like to establish a gov't, where individual rights are protected, in every possible scenario. When you figure it out, I will show you where there is an "exception" to your "own" rule. That's... relativism. That's why there are judges on benches in the U.S.

If you don't think that there are cases that are "gray", and should be considered absolute. Give me a moral absolute, and I will give you an exception to the rule.


Anonymous conor said...
I'm from Ireland and I saw the first part of the series and thought it was excellent; thorough, interesting, intelligent and a captivating bit of telly. Thankfully both parts will be repeated tonight on Channel 4 at the ungodly hour (pardon the pun) of 2.50am, so I'm looking forward to seeing the second part as well.

The thing I wanted to mention though was A.A. Gill's television review article in last weekend's Sunday Times - I wonder if any of you have seen it? (It's available online here: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14934-1980741,00.html)

In it, Gill basically derides Dawkins as "an awful embarrassment" to the scientific community. He argues that Dawkins is pointlessly devoting time "arguing with something he knows doesn’t exist". This seems utterly wrong to me. He is not "arguing with it", he is challenging apparently rational people to account for beliefs which he repeatedly demonstrates are unfounded by any real evidence; furthermore, there is a point to the series beyond mere questioning of belief (i.e. is religion the root of all evil?) - but the writer seems to completely ignore this. And to compare Dawkins to the fundamentalists he challenges is utterly ludicrous. He has come to his position through research and (as FSM puts it) 'logical conhecture based on overwhelming observable evidence'; the fundamentalists have taken a stance based on blind faith - and, what's more, a stance which Dawkins bravely and rightly argues has had profoundly damaging consequences for our world.

I have always thought of A.A. Gill as an interesting, witty writer (and I am aware that he is often wilfully provocative), but worse even than being ill-informed, this article had an astonishingly malicious bite.

The fact that Gill must have some influence on what people in Britain, Ireland and beyond watch on their TV screens makes it all the sadder that he should dismiss such a stimulating, thought-provoking piece of television in such an unequivocal fashion.


Anonymous Rutlage said...
As I see it, the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God is that he must present an endless number of paradoxes. Any believer would insist that he must be all good but he permits horendus natural disasters and unspeakable human atrocieties; he must be loving yet he sends people to the eternal flames; he allows the filthy rich to get filthier and yet permits thousands of children to starce in unimaginable squalor; he gives belivers free will but being omniscient he knows when, which way and how high they'll jump in any given situation. As a personal God he can be everywhere at once and is standing just behind every believer waiting to pounce when the poor slop makes the slip his God knows he is going to make. It's not God's fault. He's what we made him. Remember, God did not create man. On the contrary, every God from the heathen idol to the supreme ruler of the Universe was created by man. Thus endless theological debate is absolutely pointless...but fascinating.


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