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Church Members Stand Behind Osteens
The FBI said the pastor of the nation's largest church and his family were kicked off a Continental Airlines flight to Colorado earlier this week.
The Rev. Joel Osteen of Houston's Lakewood Church, his wife, Victoria, and their two children had boarded a flight from Houston to Vail on Monday.
The plane's door had been closed when Victoria Osteen and a flight attendant had a disagreement.
"She failed to comply with the flight attendant's instructions and they were asked to leave the flight," FBI spokeswoman Luz Garcia said.
Garcia added that the flight was delayed for more than an hour while the Osteens' luggage was retrieved, but no charges will be filed.
The church released the following statement.
"The misunderstanding was minor and was resolved when Victoria voluntarily removed herself from the situation. The family was unhappy with the way things were going on the plane, and Victoria commends the airline for the efficient and gracious manner in which they handled the situation."
The Osteens took another flight to Colorado, where the family is skiing, a church spokesman said.
Lakewood Church members said there is no way that Victoria Osteen would have caused a scene with a flight attendant, reported KPRC-TV in Houston.
"We wouldn't be in a church with pastors that were mean or cruel in any way, and we've been here long enough to know them well," church member Shirley Kelly said.
"I know Victoria and I know Joel since he was a little boy. He's a great man. She's a great woman. And I stand with them, no matter what they say, because I love them dearly," church member Daniel Kelly said.
Church Members Stand Behind Osteens
The FBI said the pastor of the nation's largest church and his family were kicked off a Continental Airlines flight to Colorado earlier this week.
The Rev. Joel Osteen of Houston's Lakewood Church, his wife, Victoria, and their two children had boarded a flight from Houston to Vail on Monday.
The plane's door had been closed when Victoria Osteen and a flight attendant had a disagreement.
"She failed to comply with the flight attendant's instructions and they were asked to leave the flight," FBI spokeswoman Luz Garcia said.
Garcia added that the flight was delayed for more than an hour while the Osteens' luggage was retrieved, but no charges will be filed.
The church released the following statement.
"The misunderstanding was minor and was resolved when Victoria voluntarily removed herself from the situation. The family was unhappy with the way things were going on the plane, and Victoria commends the airline for the efficient and gracious manner in which they handled the situation."
The Osteens took another flight to Colorado, where the family is skiing, a church spokesman said.
Lakewood Church members said there is no way that Victoria Osteen would have caused a scene with a flight attendant, reported KPRC-TV in Houston.
"We wouldn't be in a church with pastors that were mean or cruel in any way, and we've been here long enough to know them well," church member Shirley Kelly said.
"I know Victoria and I know Joel since he was a little boy. He's a great man. She's a great woman. And I stand with them, no matter what they say, because I love them dearly," church member Daniel Kelly said.
Ever watch the science fiction TV show "Sliders?" I wonder, in any parallel universes, if the Joel Osteen there is either a movie star, a President of the United States, a professional secular motivator like Dr. Phil or Tony Robbins, or a great musician like Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, or Andre Reiu?
Joel Osteen has great charisma. If he was not a religious racketeer, I wonder if he could have used his good looks and great charisma for something better!?
Houston is a scary place when it comes to powerful religious people.
But aside from all that, I can honestly say that it is not as scary a place as it probably is in a city like Salt Lake City, where you get pressure from people at work, your neighborhood, and family to fall in line.
If Joe Olsteen, and I said "if" he was to molest a girl, leaving along his semen as evidence, they would still stand by him....sick!
The idea of these ass wipe Christians who thinks that their clergy man is above reproach is beyond me.
A clear example of paralyzing co-dependence... of course Daniel will stick with them, Daniel is obviously receiving psychological benefits from the co-dependence...
Ah huh, and so are crack addicts who will always form in lines in the heat of the night and dead winter cold mornings to have their fix.
Reminds me of going to church on Sundays.
you may not want to hear it, but, the bible is not exactly silent about the reality of phonies and celebrity clergy and hypocrites and everything else. you just kinda gotta live it yourself, you know?
Brando, I agree!!!!!!
Have you or do you live in Houston?
Have you experienced this first hand? If so , I would like to speak with you via email,
I worked for a couple Blessed LARGE ministries in that beloved holy, self-righteouss, good old boy town. And I know several of the musicians that work at Lakewood
OASIS of LOOOOOOVE BABEE!
And sir you are absolutely correct that city is mean. they are rattle snakes. But they all love the lawd. They loves Jesus. But they are racist chauvanistic and corrupt financially.imho. Which is based on personal experience.
JB
ps
if you would like to speak more privately I would appreciate it.
Truth... a christian must give leeway for their brethren to commit worldly sin, and yet still maintain and "believe" salvation and grace is bestowed on the "sinner", lest they remove the "spell" or "magic" that protects themselves... it's an "all" or "none" premise...
minruth: "you may not want to hear it, but, the bible is not exactly silent about the reality of phonies and celebrity clergy and hypocrites and everything else. you just kinda gotta live it yourself, you know?"
Yet, christian clergy state many times that humanity is born of "sin", and therefore, its "understood", that everyone is going to "sin" throughout their lives... therefore, its no real big "surprise", when a christian "sins", as its actually nothing but a self-fulfilling prophesy come to fruition...
We become in our lives, what we have been guided to become for many years... if a child is taught that they are fully responsible for their actions according to natural laws and values, they will tend to live according to the self-fulfilling prophesy that they "can" lead a moral and ethical life, free from "fear", "guilt" and "shame"...
Social norms and morality are not symmetric... saving someones' life, while breaking the law is supposed to be illegal, and "sinful", yet... one must choose to live according to their moral values or societies'... If social norms and morality were symmetric there would not exist the tension that is felt among the diverse groups of people today...
Social norms are derived from common practices, and agreed upon by a community, many social norms established early in the U.S. were based on religious culture, to include guidance on what was sexually normal and what wasn't... Morality based on natural laws don't mesh with many common laws, as they are outdated and antiquated... such is the same for the bible... which was culturally influenced in its writings and according to the environmental influences of the era in which the writings covered, in theory over a span of over 2,000 years...
The notion that one must "kinda live..." biblical revelation, is to suggest that people recede back to living in an era of the past, which lacked the most basic of knowledge that we have today... ignorance is bliss but opens the door for mental enslavement, and knowledge is power, and can be used to enslave or to free those who are shackled... it would be easy to dismiss knowledge, but, its naturally how our neural networks function, and to deny our biological functions isn't healthy, whether its abstinence or cognition... If knowledge, is inevitable, as it appears that is what our Natures' guidance has shown, then instead of having a "few" hold that "power", there are the many...
Ignorance can be exploited by other religious or absolutist organizations, it may have been accepted for many years in the U.S. to allow ignorance to expand and fester in society as it allowed easy control for those who had knowledge and in positions to manipulate the environment... however, leaders are now having to come to grips with the same ignorance being used against them...
and... minruth, the bible evolved over a long period of time, from many different hands, and eras... The earliest Jews stated that there would be false preachers who would attempt to draw the Jews away from their customs, and god given laws in exodus, and they would be evil... and then... in the NT, the character jesus is used to portray a man who chooses to disobey Jewish laws, and tradition, who refuses to keep the sabbath day holy, who refuses to be bound by the Jewish culture... In short, if you read your bible, the Jews saw jesus as no less than evil and the fulfillment of a thousand year old OT prophesy... to the Orthodox Jews, jesus was a phony, and remains so to them, even today... So, if you have a litmus test you would like to provide using the bible, that points out who is a phony and who isn't, then I'm listening... However, logical common sense would suggest that the NT is also a phony, as the OT prophesies were never fulfilled, i.e., the Jews are not in their New Kingdom today as they would be if the "True Messiah" would have come to earth... so, if you are going to pull biblical verses, know that the NT isn't a good place to start, and the OT shows jesus as a phony... Where does that leave you, and with this inescapable chasm, how does the bible give 'anyone' looking for guidance a stable foundation to live a moral life...
But, folks remember this: All religion is based on putting the preacher between you and the creator, and many so-called Christians.... just don't get it...
JC wouldn't tolerate the hatred you perpetrate on others!
Glass house... that's what Jesus conveyed, when he gambled with that woman's life in the tavern, and everyone wanted to stone her to death... isn't that "cowardice", to not stand up for what one believes, instead of allowing sinful people the opportunity to kill a woman in his presence...
And, regarding this incident, and how you believe it wouldn't have made it into the public eye via media if it were an average citizen... I believe, you miss the point... the point, is that the media and society don't expect "premium" morality from the general citizen, but... from one who stands up to "lead" others in a "moral cause" for a "living", as a "public figure"... they make themselves "noteworthy", if they practiced what they preached, perhaps they wouldn't appear as hypocritical...
anonymous: "But, folks remember this: All religion is based on putting the preacher between you and the creator, and many so-called Christians.... just don't get it..."
Right, one can't have a true relationship with a metaphysical being in a SuperNatural state, while a believer is still in their flesh... therefore, jesus was created to represent the "darwinianesque link", for our soul survival, because "he" was both mortal and a SuperNatural being... and so, we can pray to him as an intermediary... sorry, if I ever need a god, it will be a one on one relationship, I don't believe in the spritual capitalism using the middle-man contract principle...
anonymous: "JC wouldn't tolerate the hatred you perpetrate on others!"
JC and the boys, tolerated the Roman hatred, and perpetuated conflict until his own death, so the story goes... he wouldn't even stand up to Pilate, and state that he was The Messiah... where is the moral fortitude there... perhaps, JC was a coward... what does that teach children? Lie when its appropriate... or withold information, when you can benefit... JC.. and his situatinal ethics, don't seem to cut the mustard when searching for that "role model" in life...
As for the person who commented that living according to bible would send you back to the past and would (implicit in the post) be a bad thing, it seems apparent that you do not know much of Jesus' teaching. How can you (on moral grounds) disagree with things like the golden rule, or turning the other cheek, or caring for the poor, widows, and orphans -- all of these are things taught by Jesus. Further, the bible talks about the fruit of the Spirit being "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentless, self-control." Which of these values is so bad? I agree that many, if not most, Christians in our culture do not display these qualities to the extent they should. But, you cannot measure the gospel of Jesus Christ nor the truth of the bible simply on the actions of Christians. Rather, you have to look at what Christ said and what the bible says and decide for yourself whether there is truth there.
The sad thing is that most people do not do that. Either they are indoctrinated and just believe whatever they are taught (which is true for many who claim to be Christians, but just accept whatever their parents or pastor told them) and for those who reject Christianity because they have been hurt or betrayed by someone who claimed to be a Christian or because they have been disappointed by the hypocrisy of many Christians. Believing or rejecting blindly are both bad.
I am one who did just that. I was not raised a Christian, nor did I ever hit a low point in my life that I needed to reach out for a crutch. I was going along quite happily as an agnostic adult when I was challenged about the existence of God. Through study of many different religions, something happened within me and I went from doubting the existence of any higher power to becoming convinced that a God did exist. I can't persuade any of you of the truth of that, nor do I expect you to accept my belief. But, I became utterly convinced of it. Then, I read more about different religions and came to believe that Jesus Christ really was different and that He really had the words of eternal life, as the bible says. With that, my life changed instantly and all the people that knew me saw it. Can I explain what caused that? No, but I have yet to find a psychological explanation for the amazing change in my whole way of thinking, without being taught to think differently. It cannot be explained by "indoctrination" nor by a self-desire. Since that time, I have seen some amazing "coincidences" happen in my life.
Anyway, the only thing I want to leave you with is that you shouldn't paint all Christians with the same brush. There are many of us out there who share the same feelings that you do about televangelists, etc. The sad truth is that many American "Christians" do more harm than good for the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, because of the way they live their lives.
First of all, venomous foul language does nothing for any argument you are trying to make, it only paints you as a person who is too incompetent to hold a civil conversation or debate. If you want to input something productive and thought provoking while having an inflmmatory flare to it as well, be my guest. Just try to be civil.
Secondly, no, none of us were there, what is your point? You do not have to witness a situation first hand to analyze it and make a judgement call. This man is a high profile preacher man, and like it or not people will analyze him and his family's actions under a microscope. Ever hear of leading by example?
Third, we all have lives here, it just so happens that part of our lives contains enjoyment due to our frequent visitation to this website. Ex-christian.net is for the faithless and deconverted. If you are neither, and are surprized that you do not agree with the content, you should mark the website as an "evil abomination" by hitting Alt & F4 at the same time.
Four, I really got a kick out of your assertion that I would love to be an Olsteen. It got me thinking, and you are right, I would love to have their money and power. I would probably turn the huge church they have into something useful that actually helped people.. A mega sized homeless shelter for the homeless of Houston, with job training and financial counseling. Other ideas are a swanky night club and hotel, or maybe I could turn it into an Ex-christian university. In any case, I would put it to a use other than converting the masses into mindless drones that willingly donate a minimum of 10% yearly to expand an already disgustingly oversized church and convert more mindless drones...
In closing, do I fault the Olsteens for using their cut of the church income to go to Colorado and ski? YES!! Why should they be taking a ski vacation to Vail using "god's money" when they could be using it to help people? Are they not supposed to live as high profile examples of what a christian should be? Should they not strive to live as jesus did? It seems to me the Olsteens are disobeying the very words of the jesus they revere so highly. Let me show you a few ways:
"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
-Matthew 19:21
I guess the Olsteens missed that one on their way to Colorado. They are not going to be able to count on the treasure in heaven that way.
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'"
-Matthew 19:23-24
I can't afford a ski trip to Vail, sounds pretty pricey. Joel better get poor before he dies or he may just have a hard time riding that camel.
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
-Matthew 19:29-30
Seems Joel didn't listen here either. He is destined to be last, if at all.
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 6:24
Ouch, this one seems most damning yet. What good is a preacher man if he is destined for hell on so many levels?
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
-Matthew 6:5-6
This seems to damn all Televangelists, so much for salvation thru TV, jesus says it is a no no.
Looking back, I can't see why we are even concerned with this Family's actions. We can already see they are destined for the christian hell if it exists. What does it matter if the wife is a little drunk and disorderly on a plane?
You people should get a life and live and let live. It's not about religion. Most of the comments are about hypocrisy and self-loathing.
It's sad that so many folks have to focus and opine on a situation they weren't even witness to."
That's what I've been saying about all those dudes who voted at the First Council of Nicaea to create jesus as a divine entity... three hundred years after jesus was supposed to have lived, hypothetically speaking...
Anonymous: "There's so much hate in what I stumbled on in this string of comments. Why is that?
You people should get a life and live and let live."
What the Rabbinical Jews attempted to say to Paul, and Roman Emperor Constantine I...
Anonymous: "It's not about religion."
Why, at times, does the typical Christian say "everything" is about religion and religious standards, well... until the standards are applied to them that is...
Anonymous: "Most of the comments are about hypocrisy and self-loathing."
Again, seems the early Jews said the same thing of Paul, and his hypocrisy and self-loathing... he stole the Jewish Tanakh, and preached his own oral interpretation, i.e., lying... There was probably some bonehead back then, stating that Paul's immoral acts, had nothing to do with his "teaching" of religious doctrine... Right, lets see, why would one listen to a hypocrite? I don't know either, but we have Paul/Saul, back in the day, and more recently the Osteens...
Look in the mirror, your bigotry is showing.
"She failed to comply with the flight attendant's instructions and they were asked to leave the flight," FBI spokeswoman Luz Garcia said.
Well glory be, God's anointed couldn't be wrong! Obviously the evil atheist flight attendants were completely out of line! HOW DARE THEY!
Christian hero worship is something - something stupid.
Just another mammal who has been psychologically "conditioned" to create and opinion, without referring to the documentation, typically the same ones who don't read their own bible and supporting historical documentation...
Uncle Joe, would your 'opinion' change, if the pilot and stewardess were christian? Would that make the scenario more palatable to your liking... I mean, then it would be "justified", right...
Uncle Joe: "Look in the mirror, your bigotry is showing."
Bigot: "A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot
Its obvious Uncle Joe, that Mrs. Osteen didn't seem to "agree" with the flight attendant, and instead of "compromising", or working from a stance of "cooperation", i.e., tolerance, Mrs. Osteen seemed to want it "her" way, only... but, isn't that what religion does... it teaches people especially religious leaders, that their way is the "only" way, and its either their way or the high-way... Intolerance isn't appreciated by the vast majority of humanity... but, a bigot wouldn't understand that, I suppose.... right Uncle Joe...
I agree with the other person who said you are all a bunch of FUCKING LOSERS! Get a life. I bet any one of you would swap lives with the Osteen in a milisecond! Who's up for some good 'ol Colorado skiing?!?!?!?
i dont have a clue who they are and if they are white people talking about being saved and god gave them a good house, and love, blah blah blah. i cant really see skiing. we need a new cult type of family, we need a black family that they have in chicago on public access to take the money and spend it and then i thin everyone would say wtf my 1k went to pay for a purple rollZ! i want my jesus money back
You have your answer in Cleflo A. Dollar, he is in the same vein as the Osteens and Kenneth Copeland. And yes, his last name really is Dollar!
Osteen family leaves plane after dispute
FBI agent says the pastor's wife didn't follow a flight attendant's instructions By ARMANDO VILLAFRANCA and HARVEY RICE
Houston Chronicle
A dispute involving the wife of Lakewood Church pastor Joel Osteen delayed holiday travel plans for a planeload of passengers, but few details were released Tuesday.
At least some people aboard the Continental Airlines flight were less than pleased after waiting about two hours at Bush Intercontinental Airport while the Osteens left the plane and their luggage was removed, said a woman who witnessed the incident.
"She was just abusive," said Sheila Steele, who said she was sitting behind Victoria Osteen. "She was just like one of those divas."
A church spokesman said the couple and their children left the plane voluntarily after the incident Monday and took another flight to Vail, Colo.
However, FBI Special Agent Luz Garcia said the Osteens were asked to leave the jetliner after an "altercation." She said Victoria Osteen "failed to comply" with instructions from the flight attendant. She added that no one was detained.
The incident occurred in the first class section on Flight 1602. Continental spokeswoman Julie King declined to give details.
The Osteens could not be reached for comment, and the Chronicle was unable to contact other passengers to corroborate Steele's version of events. However, the Vail Daily newspaper reported similar accounts of the incident from other first-class passengers.
Passenger Barbara Griffith told the Colorado paper that Joel Osteen was "very calm, very professional."
Lakewood Church spokesman Donald Iloff said Victoria Osteen contacted a flight attendant after noticing that a liquid had been spilled on her seat. The spill apparently was not cleaned up to her satisfaction, Iloff said. The family left the plane voluntarily and took another flight, Iloff said.
The airline issued a statement saying corporate policy forbids identifying passengers.
"There have been various accounts regarding events that occurred on one of our flights," the statement added. "We can confirm that there are no remaining issues between (Continental Airlines) and those passengers, and therefore, both parties feel no further comment is necessary."
Steele said Victoria Osteen was upset about liquid on her pull-down tray and asked a flight attendant to have it cleaned. When the attendant, who was carrying paperwork to the cockpit, told her she couldn't do it immediately, Osteen replied, "Fine, get me a stewardess who can," Steele said.
She said Victoria Osteen pushed a flight attendant and tried to get into the cockpit. Passengers quoted in the Colorado paper did not address those details.
Soon after, authorities were called to the plane, she said, although it was not clear Tuesday whether they were airline officials.
Garcia said Continental officials contacted the FBI about the incident. The agency decided not to investigate.
"It was quickly resolved between the airline and the Osteens," Garcia said.
Steele said she and other passengers were upset that they had to wait about two hours while the Osteens' baggage was removed from the plane.
Joel Osteen is a nationally known author of self-help books.
He became pastor of Lakewood Church in October 1999, building it into what some observers say is the largest church in the U.S.
Victoria Osteen also preaches and plays a significant role at the church.
The congregation in July moved into the 16,000-seat Compaq Center.
Let me begin by saying that the language in which I used for my previous comment was just light-hearted and I was actually quoting a previous comment. I am highly capable of holding or debating any subject as I choose- However, I'm not here to defend my intelligence.
For someone who says they are against Christianity, you sure can quote a lot from the Bible. I'm not saying that's a bad thing however, I just feel that when people discredit Jesus and the Bible it is highly hypocritical to use it as a valid source to shun one's way of living. It's ignorant to discount Christianity then turn right around and use the text that the religion is based upon to say a Christian is doing something wrong. Most of the things people choose to "pick" out the Bible are used way out of context and is twisted to melody an opinion they hold. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying some people.
Second, I know that society has portrayed Jesus to be this sick, weak, and poor individual, however if you study the life of Christ and the era in which he lived(which by the way I have) you'll see that Jesus himself lived off the offerings people gave him. There is nothing wrong with that. Thousands of people in America live off money working people involuntarily have withheld from their income, so if one chooses to voluntarily give to another, that's okay. The Osteen's have not put a gun to anyone's head and forced them give to their church. Let's not forget, Joel is the pastor of that church, and deserves to be paid just as any other working person should.
I'm not sure about how much you know about the Osteen's or Lakewood Church (I'm assuming very little) because if you did, you would know that Joel refused a paycheck from the church for an entire year because his book had done so well, it brought in enough income to support him and his family. Also, the money that he gave back to the church was used for outreaches in the Huston area. So you see, other people do think like you. Joel did do something for the people of Huston.
While I don't agree with everything people do in the name of the "Lord", I do believe that their are some genuine preachers out there. I may not agree with everything they say, do, or believe, but not all high profile ministers are "dirty". There are so many other things for people to nit pick on other than a situation that happened on a plane non of us were on. Let's try something that needs a little more attention such as molestation in the Catholic church.
I choose to know as much as I can about BOTH sides of a topic before I choose to debate them. I know that just like any job- at the end of the week you want to be paid. When a teacher teaches-she expects a paycheck at the end of the week. When a police offer fights crime throughout the week, he expects a paycheck at the end of the week. So if a preacher preaches, why shouldn't he expect a paycheck at the end of the week? And when he finally gets it- who are we to say about what he does with it, whether it's paying bills, going to a bar, or skiing in Colorado?
** I do apologize if anyone took offence to my previous comment. I never intended to upset anyone. You are all okay in my book!**
A Christian who does not live according to biblical text, is either not a "god fearing, true Christian", or they are self-complacent hypocrites who have "little to no fear of god"... The bible verses provided to support an argument, are used to pronounce the "conflict" seen rampant among Christians... In short, how does a Christian hypocrite witness to others, and why would anyone give them any credibility if they state they are sinful and incapable of knowing gods' will as a fallen person... What Christian is "capable" of "witnessing", without being a hypocrite, to some degree, using the bible as a standard... not "my" standard... the "standard" chosen by the Christian...
Mia: "Most of the things people choose to "pick" out the Bible are used way out of context and is twisted to melody an opinion they hold. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying some people."
Most Christians I know, don't know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis, they don't know how to read COIN Greek or Hebrew, and they really don't have a solid grasp on world history, and philosophy, but... if they did... they would be able to intellectually "read" and "understand" the bible in its "true" context...
Mia: "Second, I know that society has portrayed Jesus to be this sick, weak, and poor individual, however if you study the life of Christ and the era in which he lived(which by the way I have) you'll see that Jesus himself lived off the offerings people gave him."
According to tradition and the bible, Jesus was said to have lived to be 33 years old, and to have only truly been known for 3 of those years... he was also said to be a carpenter... Where do you find that Jesus was an evangelist, preaching for offerings...
Mia: "There is nothing wrong with that. Thousands of people in America live off money working people involuntarily have withheld from their income, so if one chooses to voluntarily give to another, that's okay."
That's a values statement... I value honesty, and even though I could sell snake oil as a cancer cure, I wouldn't, because I'd be lying... some people value "money" more than honesty, and therefore don't have a problem selling, half-truths, or historical revisionism...
"Historical denial (sometimes called historical revisionism, see qualifier below) is history practiced by those who take on a partisan tone, either as an official state policy, or to advance the interests of a particular group. The revisionist seeks to rewrite history by downgrading or simply ignoring essential facts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(political)
Mia: "The Osteen's have not put a gun to anyone's head and forced them give to their church. Let's not forget, Joel is the pastor of that church, and deserves to be paid just as any other working person should."
Is it "faith" or "works" by which one is saved... If by "works", then Joel shouldn't be getting "paid", as his "work" is for his salvation "only", well, unless he is a hypocrite...
If Joel doesn't believe in "works" as being required for salvation, and he abides by "faith" alone, then why does he feel compelled to "work", if he does out of altruism, then he doesn't "rate" payment, if in fact he's not a hypocrite...
And again, selling ones' business by leaving out world history, and how his religion "evolved" from "other" religions of the era, is "selling" someone a "lie"...
Joel's business, is to provide a service, its not religious wholly... its a business, and he gets a tax exempt status for his business, called a 501c3 code... In that context, he has customers... perhaps some customers want to be "lied" to, but I would state that this has not been the case to the Christian community I grew up with... most want the "truth"... however, the "truth" is not business smart for Joel, as if he actually did historically present the bible, he would lose customers...
Mia: "I'm not sure about how much you know about the Osteen's or Lakewood Church (I'm assuming very little) because if you did, you would know that Joel refused a paycheck from the church for an entire year because his book had done so well, it brought in enough income to support him and his family. Also, the money that he gave back to the church was used for outreaches in the Huston area. So you see, other people do think like you. Joel did do something for the people of Huston."
However, when Joel isn't doing side jobs, he does in fact get paid for his "works"...
Mia: "While I don't agree with everything people do in the name of the "Lord", I do believe that their are some genuine preachers out there. I may not agree with everything they say, do, or believe, but not all high profile ministers are "dirty"."
Perhaps, not "all" dirty, maybe just "ignorant"... The only preachers I know that weren't "dirty", taught at university's, historically speaking... and they didn't present god as a fact, and surely didn't deny that christianity was the direct result of ongoing social evolution, which is "not" taught by most preachers out in society that I have known... however, I have known some "ignorant" preachers, and therefore, have to reserve disdain for them, as they aren't even aware of their own lack of education...
Mia: "There are so many other things for people to nit pick on other than a situation that happened on a plane non of us were on. Let's try something that needs a little more attention such as molestation in the Catholic church."
In case you don't see the pattern... many people claim that religion has "something" to offer society, and preachers run the business... I wouldn't have a problem with that, except that most preachers either wittingly or unconsciously feed and live off of the ignorance of their followers, while using a spiritual "carrot" to keep them coming back... that's not limited to one religion...
Mia: "I choose to know as much as I can about BOTH sides of a topic before I choose to debate them. I know that just like any job- at the end of the week you want to be paid. When a teacher teaches-she expects a paycheck at the end of the week. When a police offer fights crime throughout the week, he expects a paycheck at the end of the week. So if a preacher preaches, why shouldn't he expect a paycheck at the end of the week? And when he finally gets it- who are we to say about what he does with it, whether it's paying bills, going to a bar, or skiing in Colorado?"
Mia, did you get paid to give presents to your family this year in the tradition of Santa Clause? Did you "expect" a payment for giving the gifts you did? Did you "demand" payment for giving the gifts you did? What if the "gifts" weren't even yours to give, and you were only "delivering" the gifts, would you "expect" payment? Would you "demand" payment? What if "giving" the gift, was supposed to "pay" off a "debt" you owed?
Is it honorable to take money for a job, that you were already paid for, or a job that you "will be" paid for by someone else?
Its definitely shrewed business, but not noble by any means... Why would anyone pay someone who is willing to double dip, at the expense of others... especially on matters of morality a spirituality...
And, before I go, I'd like to add, that although I don't believe in the "christianized" version of "god", or the bible as a divine text... I am versed enough, to know that Jesus was a carpenter, and Paul a tent-maker, and neither preached with the expectation of Physical Monetary payment... as a matter of fact, Jesus was so angry that business was being conducted in a temple he visited, he started throwing tables, etc... plainly obvious that business shouldn't be mixed with spirituality...
Humbly receiving charity is one thing... setting up a spiritual business, is an entirely different matter, as it creates the persona of "hypocrisy", between the lay-person and their doctrine, i.e., Jesus at the temples... yes, once again, not practicing what one preaches, according to the "good book" they preach from...
Again, that's not to say, "I" agree with the good book as divine guidance... but there are those who do... Non-hypocritical followers, should stand up, and call those who "premeditatedly" engage in spiritual business... hypopcrites... Or, there is the alternative... I suppose one can suggest that those who are performing a spiritual calling, should get paid like a police officer, nurse, etc...
I appreciate your comments.
We could argue this until "Jesus comes back" and never come to an agreeable conclusion. Once again, thank you for your honest and knowledgeable comments and everyone take care!
p.s. As for Sandy's comment: please learn to focus on the main subject and not pick petty examples used in an illustration! Thank you.
Jesus was nothing more than a court jester, his premise is still hilarious, what a jokester that Jesus turned out to be, eh?
And how about that phoney Bible God, a million laughs, don't ya think?
Oh Jesus where for art thou Jesus?
Jesus got pissed off according to christian lore, because people brought business into spiritual affairs... hence, the business of "rewards", in the here and now, vs. the rewards in the afterlife, etc... read the bible... you pathetic fool... where in the bible does it say you will receive anything more than "just" salvation... why do christians, such as yourself always appeal to "greed"... and attempt to spark a "desire", for "more power"... and if you are limp minded, more power equates to, power over "death", i.e., one can be saved of eternal death, if they do as commanded...
Anonymous: "the little quote about if you don't help yourself then God won't either, is not scriptual and you won't find it in the Bible."
So, you don't have to help yourself, because god will provide everything needed... tell that to the Jews who were murdered in concentration camps, and all of those murdered at the hands of christians, using biblical verse as justification...
Anonymous: "I find it interesting that you all condemn a man who stands up on Sunday and refuses to condemn any of you and says you believe what you believe and that's find with him, also you are hypocritical,..."
If this pastor stands up, and believes the bible to be gods' word, then he must in fact "have" to condemn non-believers, its in the bible, if you need the scripture, look it up, or are you that lazy... If this pastor does not "condemn", but says he believes the bible to be the "word" of a divine god, then your Pastor is a hypocrite, and not more than a coward... he should put up, or shut up... stand for the bible, and claim christianity as the absolute truth, or don't stand up for the bible, and not be a christian...
Anonymous: "...you judge Christians but then turn around and say Christians are juding you,"
Read your bible, are you that daft that you aren't aware of your own bible, its required to condemn non-believers, and christians are required per the bible not to be judged by other christians... again, if you are too lazy to pick your bible up, I'll post the biblical reference...
Anonymous: "...as far as oh I been so hurt by Christians, how many do you really know, tell me have you ever been hurt by sinners, your so called friends, your boss, your wife children husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, classmate etc."
Its obvious you have no clue of your religion... my friends, family, etc., etc., may commit acts that disappoint me, however, they aren't reading a play-book called the bible, which tells them "how" to conduct hate campaigns, etc... that would be the christian bible that does that...
Anonymous: "...get over it and grow up maybe you should see a doctor so everytime something goes bad in your life it is not blamed on the christians."
Better idea, talk to those who a person has a problem with, if they are reasonable, and work things out... however, if one comes accross a bigot, typically a religious person with no reasoning capability, because they are totally running on "faith", just pity them, and try and get away as far as possible... a bigot doesn't change over-night, and they have the bible to lead them...
Anonymous: "I think all of you protest too much and to spend all this time on this subject shows me that you really want help to believe, and deep down you know Jesus Christ, God, heaven and even hell is for real."
If hell is real, then it must be no worse than having to hear your most obtuse comments, while trying to make a plea seem logical and cogent... Learn what your bible states... then either accept it or not, if you don't, then you aren't really a protestant or catholic christian, perhaps some other offshoot of christianity, in its many fragmented forms...
Um, I think you meant to say that life is "too" short, right? Anyway, yes, it's too short to spend it believing blindly in a philosophy that doesn't stand up to rational thought. So who's the real "fool"?
all of you need to stop looking at the man thats doing gods good work and look at the work that you are not doing for god.
Ok what is god's work? digging graves? What god's work are you doing? Witnessing I'll bet, working for god...wow what a dumbass!
life is to short lets not be fools.
Ok you go first!
joel olsteen is a man that shows people to live there lifes the way the bible says now thats up to you and i to follow what the bible tells us to do not what man tells us.
Who do you think wrote the Bible? god, jesus? No dumbass fundy, a man wrote the bible!
joel is a good man and im sure that his intention are to please god if not god would not prosper him the way he does.please dnot take this the wrong way but some of you are jealous because he has this and that and you dnot.
Maybe we chose to earn our living honestly, not by spreading lies that people like you want to hear, thats the reason we don't have as much as Dr. Joel
the bible says the most is the least and the least is the most, so what does that tell you? Joel is headed str8 to HELL!!!!!
jesus supposedly said, sell everything that you have and give to the poor, store your riches in heaven, what gaineth a man to inherit the world and lose his soul to hell?
are maybe it makes you feel better when someone else is less fortunate then you.my friends life should be about other peoples needs to not just your own
Ok then how come Joel is filthy rich, looks like he took care of himself first.
. and for the ex christians.i dnot know who you are but as for me there is no life with out jesus maybe if you had met him you would have never lift him because he never lift you.
Ok you've met christ, tell us what he looks like, is he white or black or french or eskimo, is he fat, skinny? Does he speak english, german, russian, spanish?
god can do all tings yes even forgive you.im not a perfect christian but im trying to be my witness is poor but im trying to make it better i realize that im a siner and inneed of gods strenth and hope guidance courage that only he can cive me. the problem with us today is that we dnot take god serious but he is real and living today
so if god is real, what does he look like, since you have seen him, otherwise you're guessing he's real. right?
.so guys lets stop pointing fingers at this person and that person lets hope for the best in our lives today. the bible says in matthew . 7.11.... if you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him. joel is only doing his job and being bless for it. i feel very sorry for people like you i didnt know that exchristian excisted.i hope that you can find christ befor its to late god bless you and your family
find christ? which way did he go? here christy, here christy, I do not see him, where is christ? where does he live?
Oh in your heart, ok I'll go get an xray tomorrow and look for jesus in my heart.
Glob bless you too, gosh I feel superior already, damn I feel like I'm saved, I'll pray for you and your family, maybe someone will find christ some day, just look into your heart.
What a rambling dumbass fool.
"... life is short so thats why i dont take it serious because this is not my home because its to short .god i feel very bad for lost people like you. and maybe you can tell me one thing if there is no god what are we doing here and whats keeping the moon and the sun from crashing in to us and how is it that big bang created male and female did the big bang want it to start a family and have pets and animals and did it create the ozone layer and so many other universe and how is it that we are the only planet that has life ..god bless you"
Dan comments:
So much ignorance, so little time.
Dan (Who would ask all anonymouses to pray for all the sick and mistreated, and starving people around the world, instead of us heathens)
He said to give all that you have and give to the poor. Have you done this? Answer, No!
Why not?
If you belive in jesus, but you do not believe in what he says.
You and Joel Olsteen are frauds!
A rich man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?
Do you own a car, boat, plane, motorcyle, home? If you do, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
There are people in Africa starving right now, who own nothing, Nothing! They are going to heaven, but you and Joel Olsteen are going to straight to Hell!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus said; They will take up serpents and drink any poison, and no harm shall come to you! Have you done this? Answer, No!!!
yes the bible was written by man but it was inspired by the holy sprit.
How do you know this? Who told you this?
What is a Holy Spirit? Which Holy Spirit?
What is a holy spirit?
What keeps the moon and Sun from crashing into us, you ask, it's physics, called gravitational forces, not a god, the earth and moon will eventually fall into the sun, it's being pulled into the sun, it's not a god.
Yeah you keep praying, because you've been told praying does something, you're an Idiot!!
So true.
Well, I was going to add, but nevermind.....I suppose having the grammatical skills of a second grader falls under "knowledge", korect? lol
Okay, firstly, YOU are the one claiming the existance