How alarming that it is controversial to claim there are no demons and other invisible creatures.

I agree with everything on the sign except, the hardening of the Heart. That is a religious metaphor lie, I wish people that stood up against religion would not use religious metaphors. It plainly shows how we've all been brainwashed to believe that the Heart is the center of all thought and emotions. This is the religious lie invented by the Bible writers, whom had no medical knowledge and thought that the Heart was what controled all thought and emotions, surely God would have known about the brain being the control center of all thought and emotion. The reason that they thought that the Heart is the center of all thought and emotions is because, the brain's responce to events causes the Heart to react due to increased adrenilin doses sent to the Heart, called the fight or flight syndrome, the Heart is only reacting to the brain's messages calling for the Heart to react. When people use the word Heart to describe an emotion, they are only helping perpetrate a lie invented by the uneducated, mindless, unwisemen writers of the Bible/Book of Man's Lies.

I find that I have to be very tolerant of people who have strong religious beliefs, because I know how long and hard I struggled with it.

I don't know why it is so hard for people to say "I don't know" As of today, I don't know how or why we were created, but it still doesn't stop me from wanting to live as well as I can as long as I can.I refuse to feel guilty for that!

My creator gave me the capacity to experience love and beauty in this life, and I will not fill my days preparing for the next one. I did not exist for a very long time before I got here, and may not for a very long time after I leave.

I JUST DON'T KNOW, AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE!

Neither the happy, smiling, young preacher nor the wrinkled old preacher, nor the saints, nor the pope, no one knows what God is, YET!

I think the sign is rude. It's one thing to put up a message supporting the separation of church and state or to support your own holiday or lack of holiday, but that sign blatantly says, "Everybody who doesn't think like we do is wrong." I'm frankly appalled at the outright intolerance. I expect that from certain Christian groups, but I thought freethinkers would know better than that.

There is nothing intolerant about the sign. It simply states facts. Stating a fact (or even an opinion) is not intolerant. Intolerance is when you deny someone the right to state facts or opinions.

That's an awesome sign! Kudos to the FFRF!

Guess the ones who object are those who have been brainwashed. Let's hope this sets an example. Christianity need to be exposed for the fraud that it is.

WEBMASTER!
Hey Dave! What are they doing to your site? Is this stuff just a result of greedy hosting companies or "Fundie Crusader" hackers?

God! I hope the Jesus freaks aren't behind it. That would be scary!
Dano

They're tryting to drive me nuts, but it won't work.

I guess it's a small price to pay for having a popular site.

On the up side, it's giving me the opporunity to learn some of the cool new services available.

WM
The comments "Thingy" seems to be working now!

Dano:

Did you get notification through the Yahoo group?

Yes perfectly!

Great.

Let me know if it quits.

--Guess the ones who object are those who have been brainwashed.--

Guess again. I object and I'm ex-xian. I just think people who claim to know everything about the universe (a.k.a. stating as "fact" there is or is not any kind of god) are awfully arrogant. I'd object if the sign said there is a God, he loves Christians, and religion is necessary for humans to be moral: why wouldn't I object to the opposite extreme?

There are knowns and unknowns, and entire organizations are built upon hypotheticals... it is intolerant for someone to "impose" their hypothetical onto others, however, there is the freedom of speech to be honored, with the limitation being verbal harassment...

I agree, its somewhat arrogant, and uneducated to state hypotheticals as "fact" in an effort to "persuade" others to join their belief system... However, its apparent that there alread exists the "far right" view regarding Christian hypotheticals as "fact", therefore, stating another "hypothetical" as a "fact" appears to be making the statement.... If you can do it "religion", and call your hypothetical a "fact" on public property, then, so be it, I can too...

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure does "expose" the two wrongs, and perhaps that's the point...

Hm. I agree, it is rather straightforward and harsh, at least in the manner of saying, "STFU, you're all idiots." But what Christian signs don't do the same? What Christians don't blatantly ignore common sense and claim Satan is behind terrorism, when the terrorists claim their work is done in the name of Allah?

I suppose it could have been phrased better, at least to subtly put the point across instead of beating it over our heads with a hammer.

- Sokudo (who lives in Wisconsin. Weet)

as far as anyone knows that sign states fact(s). people need to understand, folks like me are just as offended when someone puts religious claims in a government place as they are at this sign. second off all its the principal. kudos to FFRF.
it arrogant sure.....thats the point being made though.

gonensane commented -- "I just think people who claim to know everything about the universe (a.k.a. stating as "fact" there is or is not any kind of god) are awfully arrogant."

Can I say there is absolutely no possibility of an actual "god" being out there, somewhere? In short, no. However, I also cannot say there is absolutely no possibility of an actual purple flying cow being out there, somewhere either.

I can say that there is absolutely no reasonable and credible evidence supporting the existence of a purple flying cow or an actual "god".

I can't speak for you, but in my life, if I find no evidence for the existence of something, and no reasonable arguments for its existence, then I simply state that it does not exist. I suspect you do too, unless you are equally open minded about the existence of purple flying cows.

Saying that gods do not exist is no more arrogant than saying that purple flying cows do not exist. Of both we can be equally certain.

Hey Sokudo, I'm in Wis too! Rock on. ;)

Back to the issue at hand, the problem is that the Christians who are seriously offended are not going to look at their own behavior and draw parallels. It's a moot point to try and wake them up because they are too entrenched in their own ideals, and this sign only gives them an excuse to hate atheists even more. Besides, in their minds, they're being intolerant for God and so they're right no matter what. In the meantime, people who are tolerant of others will start to look at the FFRF in a bad light.

As for flying purple cows, I don't personally think they exist, but if a group of normally-mentally-stable people claimed to see one, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Just because I don't have personal evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Hi, All,

I think more things need to be done like this and FFRF is awsome. We have to constantly put up with religious bullshit being shoved down our throats, so why not fight back so-to-speak. Besides, we can not be absolutly sure a god or the purple cow doesn't exist, but this sign is a hell of a lot closer to the truth than any wholey babble nonsense or any other ancient fairy tales.

I disagree about the heart reference, Wesley. Educated people know emotions come from the brain, but refering to that as the heart is no big deal, widely accepted and everyone knows what it means. Plus I think is softens the message.

Regards, Carol

I don't know how many of you regulars are familiar with "Freethought Today" but it is published by the FFRF, the same ones who are putting up the sign that is the subject of these comments. I have a couple of T-shirts with that same message on it and wear it often when I walk or run around my neighborhood. I live in a rural area with a Southern Baptist church with in a mile of my home. My wife still attends this church and most everyone in the area knows me and my lack of beliefs. I have absolutely no problem with the message of this sign and I feel it's past time to do and say even more. The more noise we make the more people will take notice that we are here. The publication "Freethought Today is wonderful reading and comes 10 times a year. I highly recommend it. Happy Holidays!

Some claim that Christians who are totally programmed aren't going to take notice of the parallels because they are cognitively stagnant... I can agree that there is definitely ignorance, however... Choices have to be made in society... A person can sit back and allow hatred and bigotry to simmer under the current of society while it peeks its head out, while they bash gays, kill babies, attack doctors at clinics, etc., etc... or, they can "call" the bigots out in the open and preemptively keep the issues in the "spotlight"...

Bigots are much more willing to sit back like cowards, and throw hate rhetoric at society, or take actions that are obviously biased toward "their" benefit, at the expense of "others" in society... This is how the KKK typically operated many years ago, now, they are much more open in public, but they are openly criticized, and people "know" where this group stands on the issues... Personally, I like to know who the perpetrators of ill will are in society, and how they can affect me...

The issue, is a sign on public property, stating a "belief" as a fact, and allowing it to stand as "if" its a fact... I would have "zero" problem, taking an entirely opposite stance, create an organization that believes Jesus committed beastiality and loves his animals and post that out in public... oh, wait, the Jewish Talmud already has that one cited reference... Point is, Christian zealots may see it as an attack and remain bigoted, but the second they attempt to take it to court, is the moment when the opposition can step into court, and whail on them, in the end, everyone will either end up taking their signs down in an "official" public setting, or, society in general will "know" the legal leanings of the area that create their rules, i.e., a Christian based judge may give leniency in sentencing for Christians who show up in court, and not be so lenient on the non-believers of society, as the bigots claim that the ills of society are really caused by the non-believers, regardless of how many Christian rapists there are running around with "pastor" certifications...

If groups aren't challenged in the courts, the laws will eventually reflect those who have bigoted views, its called common law in the U.S. Let it go long enough, and people will end up having to "move" from their state in order to live "freely", kind of a sad state of affairs, when there is supposed to be freedom to live anywhere in the U.S., equally...

I suppose I have a sharp opinion on mentally stable people being declared mentally sane who see, invisible objects and call them fact... A person who is insane can have their belief, I don't have to accept their mentally deranged views, however... its a "fact" that marketing campaigns with "signs" posted in places, even in "backgrounds" of movies have a dramatic affect on how people think and make their decisions, even if as slight as subliminal messages... Its why the advertising industry pockets billions of dollary a year... Religions know this, and want "free" advertising on Public Property...

Those who place signs on public property are doing so for a reason, and its not, to just let people know what a few people think, its to advertise what a few people believe the "truth" is, and have it sponsored by a fed or state organization... Children who don't know anything different, look to authority figures to give them guidance, what does one suppose looking at a religious poster on state or fed property provide... GUIDANCE...

There is no such thing as benign "tradition" when its backed by fed and state... using the term "tradition" to wrap a belief system in order to Publicize it, is an insult to anyone with an IQ of >30... For those who fall below that IQ, and are victims of backwoods programming, they need to be given proper information and knowledge to prevent them from committing mindless acts in society... I think I'll go out and carve a manger with a baby Jesus mounting an Ass as stated in the Talmud, and put it out on my front lawn tomorrow, and call it tradition... perhaps, have an orgy or two beside the outside pool totally open to the public, and just for grins, put up a rebel flag on martin luther king day, every year... all in the name of "tradition"... that was sarcasm... however, religious zealots are making the same exact statements, who gives them that right? Society... people can either stand up, and call it for what it is, or they can sit back and accept the intolerance..., the decision is a personal one... the only way to stifle hatred is to confront it, and expose it through opposition marketing, or by using legal instruments... and it appears, that opposition marketing is the manner in which this is being handled... However, I think taking the morons to court would be the most productive way to handle the situation in a short time, however, putting out signs on a yearly basis seems to be a short solution, putting out opposing signs yearly, seems to be a long slow death...

i don't agree with anything on this site, i'm going to voice my opinion, but i'm not going to sit here preach to anyone. yeah, okay, so you're an "ex-christian". that's your thing, but there are others who don't feel the same as you do. i, personally feel that there is a God, and there are angels as well as a devil and demons; no one can truly know for sure, but there are plenty of ways to find out how. Religion is not a myth. let me make that clear, now, and straight up. Okay, well you don't believe in that, but that's what you think; those are your own ideas. i hope you know that there are many people (billions), out there in the world who don't believe the same as you do, and i'm positive that you already know that. however, i think it's really terrible that someone would think that 'there is no God' or any other spirit creatures. how do you think we all were created? let me tell you, it certainly didn't happen by some "big bang" theory. the evidence doesn't all add up. wouldn't you think that there is some greater being who created us humans, animals, plant life, and any other thing that you can think of that keeps the earth the way it is (seasons, climate, distance from the sun,...). besides, we couldn't have just suddenly appeared out of nowhere. what's your reason(s) for being this way ["ex-christian"]? as one last comment for today, hate to break it to you, but you're the ones in danger. also, i'm not saying that anyone has to agree with me, but feel free to do so.

Hey, if its unconsitutional to post pro religious messages on public buildings, how can you post anti-religious messages.

If FFRF is serious, there should be NO mention of religion, one way or the other.

Of course, they are not serious, because they want the elimination of religion, not freedom from religion.

In their own way, they are as totalitarian as any other group.

spin-it like a pro anonymos.

I too see hypocrisy when they use Bibical references like "hardens hearts" just what does harden one heart mean? How do you harden your heart? That's the thing isn't it? We've all been brainwashed with the accepted Biblical terms, that it's hard not to post anti-religious signs without using the ignorant Biblical terms used to brainwash the christians in the first place. I wonder if the American Indians used words like harden your heart or my heart goes out to you, or a heavy heart, or tugging on your heart strings, etc. I do not think they did, the heart cliches come strictly from the Bible brought over here by the pilgrims, I wish the Bible had stayed over in Europe in the sewer where it belongs.

Youngdragon21,

Hate to break it to you, but you're the one in danger.

Quran 5:73 "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. 5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

You are certainly going to hell. I'd be scared if I were you.


Youngdragon21, the reason you believe in Christianity is because you are a scared little child. You fear your supposedly all-loving god.

Cheers

I too, see hypocrisy when they use Bibical references like "hardens hearts" just what does harden one heart mean? How do you harden your heart? That's the thing isn't it? We've all been brainwashed with the accepted Biblical terms, that it's hard not to post anti-religious signs without using the ignorant Biblical terms used to brainwash the christians in the first place. I wonder if the American Indians used words like harden your heart or my heart goes out to you, or a heavy heart, or tugging on your heart strings, etc. I do not think they did, the heart cliches come strictly from the Bible brought over here by the pilgrims, I wish the Bible had stayed over in Europe in the sewer where it belongs.

Again, it appears there are a few options; one, society allows religious marketing to continue on public property, thus "CONDONING" the un-constitutional activity... or, society steps in and makes their voice heard... even if it requires equal marketing practices...

The goal, perhaps, may be to give them the message, to take their opinion, and take it home... If they are so "bent" on getting the message accross to the public, let them go door to door like all other good business marketing agents do... at least then, I can choose to tell them I gave at the office already, and was really disappointed with the product...

Again, I think the religious group posting signs on public property should be sued, its just another confirmation that whoever is the public leader for that building, has religious leanings toward unconstitutional acts... it took the Supreme Court to kick the judge out of a job in Louisiana, who posted a ten commandments statue on the courthouses' lawn, i.e., public property... With these little yearly incidents, before they go to court, will have the signs back down, and say "oh, it was tradition"... again, perhaps the FFRF needs to come up with a "tradition" of someone pissing on a Jesus statue, and create a symbol and post it up on the wall, and call it even every year...

And, there are "justified" reasons for self-defense... to state that a person doesn't want "peace", because they have to fight back in self-defense is the most assinine statement I have heard or read in the last few hours... I can hear it now... "If you really wanted peace, you wouldn't have joined the war..." as millions of people are thrown into furnaces... Its one thing, to "start" a war, its another, to protect oneself from oppression, sounds like there are more than enough people running around wanting to 'beat down' the victims, by trying to demonize (vernacular, we all know these don't exist) them... While these people are at it, perhaps they should make a trip down to a battered spouse shelter, and yell at the victims for being hypocrites because they had to fight back to survive, its obvious that they condone physical abuse... and, its plainly obvious, self-defense of any kind, makes someone a hypocrite, well, per what "some" people use as a simpleton excuse to cover or justify "wrongdoing"...

I too see hypocrisy when they use Bibical references like "hardens hearts" just what does harden one heart mean? How do you harden your heart? That's the thing isn't it? We've all been brainwashed with the accepted Biblical terms, that it's hard not to post anti-religious signs without using the ignorant Biblical terms used to brainwash the christians in the first place. I wonder if the American Indians used words like harden your heart or my heart goes out to you, or a heavy heart, or tugging on your heart strings, etc. I do not think they did, the heart cliches come strictly from the Bible brought over here by the pilgrims, I wish the Bible had stayed over in Europe in the sewer where it belongs.

I think the sign is refreshing. I would love to see it in my town, on a public place.

Those who feel offended, it is their own decision to feel that way. The words on the sign give no cause.

I agree, using religious verbiage doesn't help matters... the whole reason of course religionists use their syntax, is because they know of no other syntax... if they did they would probably no longer be religious... For instance, Heart is nothing more than psychological emotion, influenced via ones' natural physiological state of being, and natural environmental influence(s)... Heart to a religious person, is the "spirit" moving in ones' body...

Each of us communicate for a purpose... If my purpose is to reach "truth", and seek knowledge, I'd be extremely precise in my vocabulary..., however, two people were engaged in a civil conversation where there was tolerance and one person used the words that reflected their belief, Not, in an effort to push their views onto me or others, but to use the language that reflects their belief/views, then I'd have little problem...

The trick is to determine what the other persons' purpose for communication is accurately... I rarely talk unless its to drill down into "fact", therefore, I don't engage in the warm fuzzy rhetoric very often, however, that doesn't mean there can't be civil warm fuzzy conversation between two tolerant individuals... I suppose there could be at least one truly religious person who is willing to be "openly" civil and tolerant, regardless of their underlying thought, that those who don't believe as they do, are going to hell, etc...

I suppose I don't tolerate much religious discussion in part, because if the person speaking was truly genuine and knowledgeable about their belief system, they would have to believe everyone else is "wrong" about their beliefs, i.e., not tolerant, and I don't talk to people who are intollerant, unless I have no choice...

If I engage a conversation where a person is not truly genuine or knowledgeable of their beliefs, then, the conversation becomes nothing more that chit chat, and small talk, and although I don't mind the weather conversations in elevators, its not what I seek in life to make my day fulfilling...

I'm perfectly at peace just being around people who are genuinely "tolerant"... religion doesn't typically find its way into my day to day conversations for that very reason... I suppose the only reason I have "any" communication with the masses, is in part because many who say they are religious, don't understand enough about their own belief systems to be truly considered tolerant/intolerant, these people are still trying to figure it all out, and for them... I spare some time...

I have no idea exactly how old the universe is, maybe millions of years old, but to date no one and I mean no one has been able to prove a God, Gods, or Goddesses exist. Need one say more.

A-hole anonymous type said, "How alarming that it is controversial to claim there are no demons and other invisible creatures."

yeah, perhaps it is, but it's also pretty weird paying 'homage' to a sign. Leave it to America's Dairyland to bring this pressing concern to our attention. Can't they just wear their cheese-head gear and cheer on their beloved Packers?

Not saying religion is bad, just saying, keep it the fuck away from law. Religion messes with morals and laws more then people think. I trip knowing that people are disgusted of some stuff poeple are fine with in other countries, while other are disgusted with us.

EXAMPLE: The USA looks down disgustingly at porn, nudity. The human body, but in Japan, there's full networks of comedy and even game shows based around sex and nudity. HOW is nudity even so bad to be so looked down upon in the US? And in another's point of view, Arabs beleive we're wrong about the equaly treatment of women. It's all perspective.

I'm not saying that any of the 3 are right, I'm just saying that religion plays TOO much of a role in law.

Plus, christianity's not even the right, nor a good fuckin religion.

Christianity in 0001: Thou shalt not harm thy neibor

Christianity in 2007: If your neibor is not christian, kill them.

As for the right religion, If I was to start preaching, I wouldnt be any beter then the others.