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encouraging ex-Christians
News of interest to former Christians
Intelligent design class upsets some.
A University of Kansas religion professor apologized Monday for a recent e-mail that infuriated religious conservatives already upset about his decision to teach a course that equates intelligent design and creationism with mythology.
Also Monday, faculty approved the course but dropped the reference to mythology. The course, originally called "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies," will instead be called "Intelligent Design and Creationism."
The class was added to next spring’s curriculum after the Kansas State Board of Education decided to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for elementary and secondary students.
In the e-mail, Paul Mirecki, chairman of the university’s Religious Studies Department, called supporters of the teaching of intelligent design and creationism religious "fundies" and said it would be a "nice slap in their big fat face" to teach the subjects as mythology.
In a written apology Monday, the professor said he will teach the class "as a serious academic subject and in an manner that respects all points of view."
Mirecki’s e-mail was sent Nov. 19 to a list-serve for the Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics, a student organization for which Mirecki serves as faculty adviser. Mirecki addressed the message to "my fellow damned" and signed off with, "Doing my part to" tick "off the religious right, Evil Dr. P."
The university on Monday defended the teaching of the class.
"Given the current national debate, it is especially appropriate that intelligent design and creationism be treated as academic subjects in a university-level religious studies class," Provost David Shulenburger said in a statement.
During the weekend, Chancellor Robert Hemenway began a review of Mirecki’s e-mail, which resulted in Mirecki’s apology, issued Monday night in a written statement.
"I accept full responsibility for an ill-advised e-mail I sent to a small group of students and friends that has unintentionally impugned the integrity and good name of both the university and my faculty colleagues," Mirecki wrote. "My words were offensive, and I apologize to all for that."
He said he had assured the university provost that he will teach the course "as a serious academic subject and in a manner that respects all points of view."
In response to the controversy, talk swirled among legislators about withholding funding from the university.
link
Also read here: College course seeks to debunk intelligent design
A University of Kansas religion professor apologized Monday for a recent e-mail that infuriated religious conservatives already upset about his decision to teach a course that equates intelligent design and creationism with mythology.
Also Monday, faculty approved the course but dropped the reference to mythology. The course, originally called "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies," will instead be called "Intelligent Design and Creationism."
The class was added to next spring’s curriculum after the Kansas State Board of Education decided to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for elementary and secondary students.
In the e-mail, Paul Mirecki, chairman of the university’s Religious Studies Department, called supporters of the teaching of intelligent design and creationism religious "fundies" and said it would be a "nice slap in their big fat face" to teach the subjects as mythology.
In a written apology Monday, the professor said he will teach the class "as a serious academic subject and in an manner that respects all points of view."
Mirecki’s e-mail was sent Nov. 19 to a list-serve for the Society of Open-Minded Atheists and Agnostics, a student organization for which Mirecki serves as faculty adviser. Mirecki addressed the message to "my fellow damned" and signed off with, "Doing my part to" tick "off the religious right, Evil Dr. P."
The university on Monday defended the teaching of the class.
"Given the current national debate, it is especially appropriate that intelligent design and creationism be treated as academic subjects in a university-level religious studies class," Provost David Shulenburger said in a statement.
During the weekend, Chancellor Robert Hemenway began a review of Mirecki’s e-mail, which resulted in Mirecki’s apology, issued Monday night in a written statement.
"I accept full responsibility for an ill-advised e-mail I sent to a small group of students and friends that has unintentionally impugned the integrity and good name of both the university and my faculty colleagues," Mirecki wrote. "My words were offensive, and I apologize to all for that."
He said he had assured the university provost that he will teach the course "as a serious academic subject and in a manner that respects all points of view."
In response to the controversy, talk swirled among legislators about withholding funding from the university.
link
Also read here: College course seeks to debunk intelligent design
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Christians criticize secular culture and their churches get a tax break. Secular culture criticizes Christianity and their politicians threaten to withhold funds from a public institution.
What a great country we live in.
Well, yes and no... The University's are supposed to mete out philosophy and knowledge, in order to give a student a well rounded perspective... However, a University who receives federal and state support, i.e., pell grants, subsidized federal loans, etc., has "Oversight" of that institution, and can in fact influence the manner in which that University teaches... In this case... The professor appears to have written an e-mail that implies "discrimination", by means of teaching a class from a "one-sided" perspective, as opposed to giving many different perspectives and allowing a student to become educated on the many different angles of the subject... Constitutionally, the fed and state can not support a "one-sided" view regarding religious matters...
Now, I went to a four year Christian University, and I in fact, did get a "one-sided" perspective, on many occassion... per class...
However, I knew when I was getting one side of the story, becuase I did my research... Still, I didn't get an education from the university, I got a piece of paper that said B.S. Social Science...
My education came from my own research... If I were to have only been given the "one-sided" story from the professors from which I studied under, I may have been religious today... thank Nature I was intelligent enough to know that there is more than one perspective in the world, and "no" Universal Absolutes except "Change"... Probably, had something to do with the philosophy course I took... The professor that instructed me, left the following semester, a lot of pressure put on philosophy professors of religious universities... Philosophy, if taken historically, will expose religions' roots, to the point, of removing all doubt that religion is a man made, and evolving subject... Not of a Metaphysical God, and Not "Unique"... Religion is "Relative" itself, depending on the historical timeline, and culture...
Well, for those who know how many Universities are funded and subsidized, and the Constitutional ammendments... Its plainly obvious, that the legislators are swirling, because they can't support providing federal dollars to an institution that is pushing a Narrow Perspective, i.e., biased religious view...
Personally, I hope the professor teaches the course from many different angles, in the end, there are no Absolutes, the student will have to make their choice in life on what they believe... However, I'd make damn sure, if one wants to believe in something metaphysical, that they truly understand, they have "Zero" basis for the belief based on logic, and this Natural universe...
Intelligent Design? There are ripple formations in the sand from waves, I suppose the structures in the sand are created from an "Intelligent" designer... Perhaps, Crystals have an "intelligent designer" also, they're pretty complex...
And for those, who would say "Life" is different, because there is more to "Life" than just our biological impulses, both macro, and micro, I'd say... great, does that include pets... Do pets, have souls... why not? Is there evidence that an Intelligent designer didn't create Pet Souls... An Iguana Soul... Hmmmm... Better not run over one, it could be considered murder... I'd better not swat any flies, either...
Yeah, because churches are in the business of tormenting society, telling everyone they're going to hell, because they were born of "Sin"... in any other country, you could possibly beat the hell out of someone as "rude", but... alas, we get to listen to the drivel... I should create a card that has the major denominations of religion, and all the religions they feel are going to hell... so, when a religious person from a Church approaches me, and tells me who they are, I can flip the card over, and tell them I'm a "fill in the blank", and I believe they're going to hell, and beat them to the punch for being a bigot... Church's need protection, because they are self-proclaimed Absolutist organizations in a "free" society... The "free" don't like to tolerate the "oppressors", and that would be "Absolutists"... Religion in general...
Not understanding the role of mythology in the human experience is like not knowing yourself, like not knowing who your friends are, like not knowing what's good for you. George W. Bush's influence on America seems to be sinking it into an intellectual backwater where everybody thinks that the truth they know is the only truth that can be known. If this is the end product of Intelligent Design, Mr. Intelligence might want to think about going back to the drawing board.
1. When you get to college, you're not young, you're 18 and legally an adult.
2. Since when have college classes only been centered on reading, writing, and math? I learned Mandarin Chinese in college. I studied marketing in college. I also took computer classes, business law, classes on history and culture, astronomy, psychology, Tai Kwon Do, economics, international business, logic, and computer programming.
College is no more about the basics than the real world is. You learn more about yourself in college than you do anywhere else. What better setting for classes on philosophy (which, btw, most colleges have always had)?
Good point. I just finished reading a book about mythology in creative writing that heavily referenced Joseph Campbell's work. Mythology is about our journey as humans, which is why that journey has been echoed countless times in religions and stories. Understanding the basic structure of that journey is a good step in understanding how fiction gets written and how religions are developed by human beings.
I disagree here. Religion IS mythology. It is NOT foolish to say religion and mythology are the same things, because they are. Nobody has yet to prove otherwise. If we do not understand that, then we cannot understand how our society develop and how other societies around the world and throughout history develop.
By masquerading religion as truth, Christians and others are really doing themselves a huge disservice.
Amethyst, you simpleton. Clearly religion might indeed be truth, because nobody has proven it is not. Even though in your eyes, nobody has proven it is with hard scientific evidence, fair enough. Don't you understand even simple logic? You may have fallen to the dark side, but don't lose your marbles too.
This asshat of a prof isn't teaching anything. He's using the bully pulpit to cram his liberal vent down the students gullible wide open throats.
Amethyst, you simpleton. Clearly religion might indeed be truth, because nobody has proven it is not. Even though in your eyes, nobody has proven it is with hard scientific evidence, fair enough. Don't you understand even simple logic? You may have fallen to the dark side, but don't lose your marbles too.
This asshat of a prof isn't teaching anything. He's using the bully pulpit to cram his liberal vent down the students gullible wide open throats."
If religion is true, then prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Join the forum here and post your evidence for everyone to see and debate. Or are you just going to remain the anonymous coward? I noticed you didn't even sign your name to your post. There is an other option, as the webmaster pointed out.
Hey, A, what is True about Religion... Cleary, religion may not be truth, becuase nobody has proven it is, for the past few thousand years... but... we've got time... go for it...
philosophic, literal, metaphoric, its all impure.
I admire yout conviction. I also admire how you can accuse churches of repression, bigotry, discrimination (I'm paraphrasing)when you are just as guilty.
"churches are in the business of tormenting society, telling everyone they're going to hell, because they were born of "Sin"..." Isn't that what you said? Mark Twain once said "It is better to keep one's mouth shut and only appear dumb than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt". Now, I must agree that there are some churches that may fit your description but those churches are few and far between and you obviously have not visited any churches with an open mind.
Now listen carefully and try not to hurt yourself. . . Faith in God requires just that, faith. Knowing something exists because there is impirical evidence to back it up requires no effort. Faith requires effort and that is how we believe in God.
The Bible is a guide book not a history book. I am well aware of the fact that much of the Bible is myth. I am also not concerned with that. I am, however, only concerned with the teachings of the Bible. I am not concerned with whether Jesus was born of a virgin or whether He might have been married. I am only concerned with what He teaches us.
Oh, and one more thing, we were all born of sin. Human beings are inherantly evil. Do you know why? Because evil requires no effort. Good does. When you feed wood to a fire you maintain the warmth and the light. Stop feeding the fire and cold and darkness ensues. When you stop striving for goodness evil ensues. That argument, by the way, can be supported by physics. remember, darkness is merely the absence of light.
I'm not trying to be rude, it is a serious question.
Well that's a big pile of bullshit. Where did you come up with that? Good requires effort, yeah as much as maybe breathing.
"Well that's a big pile of bullshit. Where did you come up with that? Good requires effort, yeah as much as maybe breathing."
Was this comment of yours inspird by goodness? How much effort did it require?
You think it's easy to rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc., but hard to avoid those behaviors?
You have got to be kidding. I wouldn't dream of raping, murdering or pillaging! I wouldn't be able to do it if you promised I'd be richly rewarded and never punished. There is no way in HELL that I'd participate in those behaviors.
Okay, I admit, I might lie to my wife. I might tell her she is beautiful early in the morning when she isn't at her best. I might steal a loaf of bread if I was starving. But give me a break!
Tell me Mike, what horrific sin (or sins) have you personally committed that you honestly believe makes you deserving of eternal torment in the fiery pit of hell? Please, share your nasty little secret(s).
Now let me quote you here for just a moment, "the fiery pit of hell" that is a very mythological depiction of Hell. I believe Hell to be simply a cessation of existence. Perhaps I should clarify myself a little better. I believe it is harder to do good than it is NOT to do good and by not striving to do good I would simply cease to exist when my time comes.
I enjoyed your response, thank you.
No Mike, I'd do that because I love her and want to make her feel good, not because I would want to avoid a fight. Maybe avoiding fights is what your marriage is all about, but that's not my relationship with my wife.
Mike said: "I believe Hell to be simply a cessation of existence."
That's a nice JW type view. It's not strictly Biblical, but it's a nice idea.
Mike said: "I believe it is harder to do good than it is NOT to do good..."
Hmmm, interesting. I would say it's hard to do stuff you don't like to do and it's easy to do stuff you do like to do. I like to write - that makes it, in a certain way, easy to do, not because it's actually easy (it's a lot of hard work for me), but because it energizes me. I find writing to be fun - fun hard work. On the other hand, I hate housework. That makes housework hard to do, not because the labor of housework is horrible, it just doesn't energize me, and so it's not fun.
This entire website is a labor of love on my part. It takes hours of my time and a good bit of my money. Still, I provide it here freely to help those disentangling themselves from mind-crippling religion (most specifically: Christianity).
Keeping this site going is a lot of hard work - it's quite hard to do. But, it energizes me, and I like it, so it's hard work, but fun.
Now let's see, would you consider my providing this website to be good or evil? Or is it just neutral?
Hmmmm. I wonder...
I used to believe in the total depravity of man - that's really what you're talking about here. I no longer accept that depraved view.
Admittedly, people are basically selfish - that's part of our foundational survival instinct. All animals are selfish to one degree or another. Christianity disingenuously preys on the natural selfishness of people. While talking about being selfless, the whole threat of eternal damnation (or ceasing to exist) vs. eternal bliss in a city where the streets are paved with gold - that's hitting right on that old survival instinct. We want to live and Christianity promises an eternal life.
Christianity is promoted as being about loving god and loving each other. I wonder how many would remain Christian without the promise of eternal existence. I wonder how much love for God any Christian would really have without the little carrot of an apartment in the sky.
Oh, I wanted to mention, I was looking back and reading what I wrote to dave8 and it was pretty insulting. I would like to apologize to him. I tend to respond to rudeness in like manner. . .It's easier.
Thank you.
It required a lot of effort because I actually found myself typing up a reply to such a silly comment as "people are inherently evil". If I wanted to be "good" I could have done the esier thing and ignored you.
Understand?
Mike: "Now let me quote you here for just a moment, "the fiery pit of hell" that is a very mythological depiction of Hell."
Now, Mike says: "The gift of eternal life is God's gift so if we want it we only need to follow His commandments and believe in Him."
After saying much of the Bible is a myth, now you preach about a mythological Christian God...interesting.
Can shed light on what you think the myths are below?
Talking snakes?
Talking donkey?
Talking bush?
Person lived in whale for 3 days?
A beast with 7 heads and 10 horns?
A woman impregnated by a Ghost?
And a man-god popped out?
A mon rose from the dead?
God authored 10, 20, 30 commandments?
Giants?
Fire breathing leviathan?
Cheers
BTW, heaven is a myth too, right?
Cheers
According to John, or whoever the wrote the book of Revelations 21 said starting at verse 18: The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20. the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.
Notice here that the street is paved with gold.
Now, about hell:
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Luke 16:23
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
Revelation 9:2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
There are more, but that's enough for tonight.
The part of my post you are confused about is that I am saying CHRISTIANS DO NOT LOVE GOD!!!!
I am saying that the ONLY REASON Christians love BibleGod is because they believe BibleGod will give them eternal life. In other words it's a quid pro quo relationship. You give me eternal life, I'll worship you, accept Jesus in my heart, obey your commandments, repent of my sinful ways, pray, go to church, give tithes, do good deeds, (did I forget anything - no doubt I did), etc.
Real love does not demand a payment. God demands a big payment of our entire lives to get his love. Christians demand a payment of eternal life for granting BibleGod his love. It is not real love on the part of either party.
Real love is unconditional - there are NO conditions.
Hopefully now you are a little less confused.
Please don't assume by any of this post that I believe in anything the Christian religion states. I don't believe in any of it. I used to though. I passionately believed for 3 decades. I can talk the talk. I studied considerably, and preached, and witnessed and evangelized. Finally I woke up. Hopefully one day you will wake up to the fact that Christianity is just another myth driven religion.
now let's see:
Talking snakes?
Talking donkey?
Talking bush?
Person lived in whale for 3 days?
A beast with 7 heads and 10 horns?
A woman impregnated by a Ghost?
And a man-god popped out?
A man rose from the dead?
God authored 10, 20, 30 commandments?
Giants?
Fire breathing leviathan?
If you must insist on focusing all your attention on these details you will never understand the meaning of the stories. I'll say it again, it is the moral truths, not the details, that are important. Now, can you pick out the lesson of any of the stories you pulled your details from and tell me that they are wrong?
Welcome to the site.
I agree, there are some moral lessons in the Bible, just as there are some moral lessons in the Quran, just as there are some moral lessons in other mythological textbooks too. Of course, some stories/lessons in the Bible were plagiarized from early religious beliefs.
Now, where did your version of God come from if it wasn't from the book of myths, called the Bible? At least we both agree that the Bible is nothing but a book of myths that has some moral stories to it.
Cheers
You don't know me...
Mike: "I also admire how you can accuse churches of repression, bigotry, discrimination (I'm paraphrasing)when you are just as guilty."
Mark Twain once said "It is better to keep one's mouth shut and only appear dumb than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
We all have our preferences, and in a democracy, some of us, demand freedom "from" religion... However, its not bigotry to refuse to believe as someone else does, its when someone goes out of their way to oppress others that they truly become intolerant... So, Mike, what are you doing on this site? Would you consider yourself to be the one trespassing, which could be seen as a form of indirect oppressive behavior, or moi, who is a Ex-tian on a well labelled Ex-tian site, with Ex-tian views.
Regarding Bigotry, and religion, to wit; oppressive behaviors, through violence, and tresspassing, lets just call it holy ground, either tangible or virtual, shall we look to history for a few indicators... lets start with some current events, and I will post a new post, of mass atrocity, every time you respond, on this thread :-)
Rwanda Massacres:
In 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
More recently the BBC aired:
Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
BBC NEWS April 19, 1998
A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994...
Dave8: "churches are in the business of tormenting society, telling everyone they're going to hell, because they were born of "Sin"..."
Mike: "Isn't that what you said?"
Uh, Mike, if you need me to cite the bible for you, there was this talking snake in the garden of Eden... and... Oh, I almost forgot, yes, I do believe Christianity has a market on "Original Sin", or are you going to tout a differing view...
Mike: "Mark Twain once said "It is better to keep one's mouth shut and only appear dumb than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".
Euripides (484-404 BCE):
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
Mike: "Now, I must agree that there are some churches that may fit your description but those churches are few and far between and you obviously have not visited any churches with an open mind."
Christianity kills the cat:
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]
Mike: "Now listen carefully and try not to hurt yourself. . ."
Demosthenes (384-322 BCE)
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." and so, it is with Mike.
Mike: "Faith in God requires just that, faith."
You don't "know" god as so you don't have faith in god, your faith resides in the person or writing that described a god to you...
Mike: "Knowing something exists because there is impirical evidence to back it up requires no effort."
What advanced degree do you have, that was so easily acquired through eruditious work...
It appears you don't have a true appreciation for the true cost of technological advancement, and the cost religion has extolled on humanity, in order to provide that empirical evidence...
Catholic terror in Vietnam:
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
Mike: "Faith requires effort and that is how we believe in God."
Faith doesn't require "knowledge", it requires "trust" that you extend to the person, or material writings that described a metaphysically transcendent god concept to you... If you believe its harder to "trust" others, i.e., according to second, third, thousand hand revelation, as opposed to having a belief on "first hand" revelation, then... it appears to be a path you chose... or is someone twisting your arm, to believe in something with zero evidence, well, other than the mere words handed down over the eons to describe the message of theologia, i.e., hope...
And, it appears your use of "we" is misfounded... Do you "speak" for "all" religious faiths... if not, then there is no "we" in a Universal sense... you have a personal opinion, based on someone elses words, handed down over a few thousand years, that have zero evidence for their validity... Because you have to "force" yourself to "think" unnaturally, i.e., irrationally, in order to keep your message of "hope" alive, is based on your choice, and pure metaphysical presuppositional opinion...
Mike: "The Bible is a guide book not a history book."
Oh, are you an expert on exegetical matters, is this part of your higher education that was garnered to give you that "ease" of understanding...
Matthew 7:20 - "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Lets see where the bible has guided religion, in general... shall we...
Catholic extermination camps:
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
Mike: "I am well aware of the fact that much of the Bible is myth."
Matthew 7:20 - "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
U.S. History:
Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
Mike, my wife is Native American, perhaps you can explain the generosity portrayed by religion, a few hundred years earlier, and it could easily have been her baby, but... of course, that doesn't really matter, to a true Christian, using the bible as a guide...
Acts 3:23 - "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."
"By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]
Mike: "I am also not concerned with that. I am, however, only concerned with the teachings of the Bible."
Justified General Murder:
Genesis 6:17 - "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."
Justified killing of the Witches:
Exodus 22:18-20 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Prime Example:
"From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]"
God Ordered Slavery:
Exodus 21:5-6 - "And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Prime Example:
"A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery."
Mike: "I am not concerned with whether Jesus was born of a virgin or whether He might have been married."
However, you have the audacity to say you see the bible is a guide... How does one interpret the bible, if you whimsically push aside events that call into question the validity of the very passages that provide you Divine Guidance... Divine guidance, that has seemed to provide more than enough justification over history to continue mass murder, etc... That's all right Mike, I'm sure you are different, you "really" know the bible... not like all of those "other" Christians, who don't care exactly what the bible says, as they pick the passages to support their motives...
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Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
Hey Mike, now there's saving grace, forced Baptisms, how compassionate, or... is that bigotry...
1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453
1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total.
Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]
-----------------------------------
Mike: "I am only concerned with what He teaches us."
Is that possible, if you don't care about the biblical history of Jesus... Perhaps, its not what the bible teaches you about Jesus, its more about what you "want" the bible to tell you, just like all of the others who have blindly taken the bible and used it as a tool for their agendas... However, your agenda, is more righteous... because you "really" know the biblical passages and how to apply them, to include the passages which describe Jesus...
Mike: "Oh, and one more thing, we were all born of sin."
Dave8: "churches are in the business of tormenting society, telling everyone they're going to hell, because they were born of "Sin"..."
Mike: "Isn't that what you said?"
No, Mike, its what you said, and believe... I just alluded, its the business of churches and those who think like you, to use Original Sin to "torment society, telling everyone they're going to hell, becuase they were born of "Sin"..." which is evil...
Mark Twain once said "It is better to keep one's mouth shut and only appear dumb than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"
Mike: "Human beings are inherantly evil."
Can Evil come from Goodness? Mankind came from your god...
Mike: "Do you know why?"
No, Mike, but you seem to have all the answers, lets hear this nugget of good news for humanity...
Mike: "Because evil requires no effort."
Just like no effort to read the bible, or to have faith...
Mike: "Good does."
Being good requires effort... Hmmm, well, define good Mike...
Hosea 13:16 - "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God:
they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
Your god is obviously Omni-Lazy... and ultimately Omni-Evil...
Mike: "When you feed wood to a fire you maintain the warmth and the light. Stop feeding the fire and cold and darkness ensues. When you stop striving for goodness evil ensues. That argument, by the way, can be supported by physics. remember, darkness is merely the absence of light."
So, Mike, is physics your area of expertise... I wasn't aware, of your scientific prowess... Or, is the above a mere metaphor, used to express your over-simplified belief, that ying and yang actually have a presence in this universe...
For a child to be portrayed as Evil, they have to have "intent"... How is it Mike, that a baby has an "intent" on doing "evil", when a baby, has no "knowledge...
You are aware of the biblical passage of children, their lack of Knowledge, and being given the gates of heaven... because "knowledge" is considered the root of evil, per the bible...
Mark 10:15 - "Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
A baby, has no knowledge, therefore, a baby is not evil... as there is no mal-content toward humanity... Therefore, Mike, your religion, and YOU, place the label of "Evil" onto a baby, because of two sins committed by "two" people, in a garden...
Per your bible, also... there is not "two" sources for ying and yang... They well from the same spring... Perhaps, you should "read" your bible...
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Mike, I can only speculate as to the cornerstone and "origin" for your belief, which shows no foundation... such unfounded belief systems in the past have been exploited by religious leaders to murder, and committ atrocity at their whim...
However, I do commend you on your unbridled alacrity to reach for levels of obtuseness not observed or measured since pre-history... Psychiatrically, speaking, its most likely an induced behavior accelerated by a serious commitment as a child, such as yourself, to engage in coprophagia with an unparalleled intensity...
He's full of mystical feelings, so I sincerely doubt any logical dissertations will get through. And, as is typical for his ilk, he hasn't specifically answered anything anyone has asked of him. He just responds with deflecting questions colored by an accusatory tone. He has however been mildly rude, somewhat pointed and authoritatively directive.
Hmmm, maybe he is a Christian after all. Or, he's just a troll.
It took me a minute to grasp what the hell you were trying to say. It's a terrible analogy.
Here's a better one: The rapist holds a knife to his victim's neck and says, "Submit to my affections or I will torture you in my basement and eventually slit your throat. The choice is yours. I offer you my love, but if you refuse my love you will be tortured and killed."
The victim refuses her rapist's affections, is tortured and dies.
When the rapist is brought before the judge, the rapist's defense?
"It was her free choice to either love me or be tortured and killed. I offered her the free gift of my love and she refused it," said the Rapist.
Since it was a Christian judge who understood the unconditional love of god, the rapist was found not guilty.
Your BibleGod supposedly created the world and all that is in it. There is nothing that happens outside his ultimate will. He created mankind with the ability and even propensity to rebel against him, set up a scenario in the Garden of Eden to ensure that his new toys would rebel, and then punished all of mankind when Adam and Eve fell for the set up.
Then he sets up the weirdest damned "plan of salvation" which amounts to impregnating one of his toys with himself so that he can sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own anger that he has over a situation that he created.
It's weird, but so are all myths.
The absence of vasaline, made Paul's hands calloused.
"he hasn't specifically answered anything anyone has asked of him. He just responds with deflecting questions colored by an accusatory tone." I pose the question again. Who is the hypocrit?
Hmmmm, What Would Jesus Say... I can hear it now... "Well, I have to love my mom, I mean, I slept with her to have me... and of course, I'm my own father, and I definitely love myself..."
Well, that's hard to top Mike, perhaps, we can't all be like Jesus, there are many states where incest isn't legal in the U.S.
The absence of a holy-diaphram, is emaculate conception.
No, Mike... I provided biblical scripture, that is on this thread, that supports "wrong", "bad", and "unjust" crimes against humanity... Again, you didn't answer the question... A child is born with no knowledge, it takes knowledge to be "evil", therefore, how does a child become "evil"...
Or, is that too deep for you Mike. Children aren't "evil", unless you "believe" they are "evil" because of what you've been taught. A child doesn't know right from wrong, that's what they get taught, or did you not have a mom and pop... Not being, rude, but how's mom and pop, do you love them. I mean, from an obviously "evil" child perspective.
And yes, you provided biblical scripture, that is on this thread, that supports "wrong", "bad", and "unjust" crimes against humanity commited by humanity not committed by God Since, according to you God does not exist. So here's another question for you not to answer, If there is no God how is it that you are so quick to blame Him for all the crimes against humanity?
That's a great riddle! LOL!
"I have to love my mom, I mean, I slept with her to have me... and of course, I'm my own father"
12/02/2005 8:25 PM
12/03/2005 1:43 AM
Mike: "I also never said children were evil, although I understand how you warped what I have said to suit your own purposes."
12/03/2005 3:04 AM
Okay, it appears you are a little slow on the uptake, are children, even babies, human? Its a yes... or a no...
Okay, its obviously too deep for you...
Blame god(s)? Can you define a god for me? If that's possible, if not, it appears I can only hold humanity accountable for atrocity.
Do you believe the bible is the inerrant word of your God?
If "yes", then the bible, taken as a guide, is a map for committing atrocity, per my posts... In short, if you believe your God, gave you a bible, that provides divine "guidance", and there is "much" guidance, which can be used to "justify" atrocities, like murder, ripping up little babies, drowning all the innocent animals on the earth in a flood, etc., etc... Then, why "NOT" blame your god... it his/her/its bible...
If you don't believe the bible is solid, from cover to cover, as you appear to have alluded with your admission of myths running through the bible, then... how do "you" as an "evil" human, pick out "which" verses are the "good" ones...
God bless you all and have a good night.
Can't handle the heat so he left the kitchen.
Btw Mike, why are you a paramedic, shouldn't you be a minister? Then you would just need to pray to people in need of medical attention.
James 5:14: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,"
The verse above has been used by some Christian fundamentalist parents who reject modern medicine for their children's well being, only to watch them die, because prayer/faith doesn't work. Of course you already know the Bible is just a book of myths...so, I'm not worried you will only pray to people when they are sick.
And thanks for calling us hypocrites, that was a very Christian heartfelt response. Thank you.
May Jealous bless you.
webmaster answers: Pay attention here Mike! YOU are the hypocrite, you're just too wrapped up in your homemade version of Christianity to realize it.
Have a great day!
Professor Mirecki was just assaulted this morning.
Anybody want to lay a wager that his assailants were disgruntled Christians?
Christian love and tolerance can be so touching...